The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

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castor troy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Anyway i think i can draw the first assumption from what i've seen here.... Japanese defences, even when so dense and brutal, can be broken and penetrated by our fighters. What i need now is to figure out how to avoid the coordination problem...i need my sweeps to arrive togheder and before the bombers. And i need my bombers to remain togheder

B29s are still grouping....won't throw them away before i can manage to get a decent punch


game whise the only thing you can do IMO is to send your fighters ONLY on sweep for two or three turns to actually whipe him out at a 3:1 or higher rate while keeping your bombers grounded, or send sweeps and bombers on airfield attack which is what I usually would do against such a base. Reason for this is that your bombers usually don´t get whiped out anyway but four or five hundred bombers at 10000ft always have knocked out the airfield of any base I attacked. That means after one or two turns of airfield bombing there should be no enemy fighter left in the air that is actually coming out of the hex. Not attacking the airfield(s) that are covering the strategic targets is pretty much playing into your enemy´s cards I think.
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

Yup...i think you're right about the constant sweep...however i cannot use my 4Es to close his AFs...simply too many of them around...and they are all 9 lvl AFs... however i'll try to change things a bit trying to sweep for a couple of turns before sending in the bulk of my 4Es...next week we'll take over this strategy!
 
Thanks!
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
It's not the bombers...it's the fighter coordination that bothers me....
I don't know when but you eventually get 75 plane P-51 and maybe P-47 squadrons. That should help but it looks like you are muddling through just fine. I'm a bit surprised at the low fighter losses actually. But I guess the escorts are doing their job. Keeping the fighters off the bombers. BTW, those operational losses you see on bombers include ones that are hit by flak, make it home, but the plane is a write off. At least you get to keep the crew.

Don't know how many i've lost today....the turn hasn't come yet...but i bet another good run.... i cannot go on a lot like that, you know...losses are pretty even for the high allied production rates of 44....
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JohnDillworth
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by JohnDillworth »

Don't know how many i've lost today....the turn hasn't come yet...but i bet another good run.... i cannot go on a lot like that, you know...losses are pretty even for the high allied production rates of 44....
How are your 2EB pools? Are they in range for airfield suppression? If not Korea might be an option for putting lots of stuff in range. I guess if you go for Korea any further invasions of the HI's go on hold for quite a bit
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
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krupp_88mm
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by krupp_88mm »

i think your right about invading honshu, the bombing campaign will just keep him distracted awhile and force him on defense while you amass the largest possible amphibious landing whit the full support of all your air assets and your CV fleet and bombardment, i think you can bring so much firepower to bear and soften up that point across the channel any defense will crumble, then you go across with one massive stack, and work your way forward gaining some closer airbases as you go, he can try to counter attack, but as long as you have your ground forces accross and keep your CVs alive theres nothing he can do, although it will be tempting for him to cut your men off like you said, you jsut have to have your air prepared for that move
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princep01
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by princep01 »

Ser Greyjoy....why the long face and worried countenance? You look like you lost your best friend....and of course, since that is me, I'm standing right here. What seems to be plaguing your spirits at this happy time? Did one of the girls bite you? Did that idiot Dance with Me Whatever come calling for your head. What is it?

Those what? Those bombers? You lost how many? Oh, not to worry, it is May of 44 and you are thrashing those LYBs all over the place. Why cry over a few lost bombers. You killed how many? That's a lot of fighters and you bombed his factories to little tiny bits and pieces. Stop fretting like an 8th grade schoolgirl who just got dumped by her first "true love". Geez, you're starting to depress me....and you do remember how I get when depressed, no?

There; that's more like it. Go help the boys repair some of the damaged 4Es and I'm sure you'll feel a lot better. I think you'll be even happier when you look that turn over carefully and see how you tweaked the LYB's noses and count all those fighters you smushed. Just listen to General Nemo and a few other trusted leiutenants and I'm sure you'll have the buggers on their knees by Christmas. Now run along. I've going to have dinner with an old friend (evil smile).

princep Bolton
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Nemo121
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by Nemo121 »

GJ, given the A2A combat algorithm the Ki-83 has to square off vs P-=47s and P-51s before it can even get at the bombers. THere it will die in droves as do all twin-engined fighters. It shouldn't since the combat algorithm should have a zerstoerer toggle to let you designate certain groups as seeking to avoid contact with fighters and ONLY go after the bombers - just as happened in real life - but the game model is the way the game model is.
however i cannot use my 4Es to close his AFs...simply too many of them around
I'm sure what you meant to say was that you can't use the 4Es to close his AFs since that would be a misdirection of strategic assets at this point in time. [:D]

As to the bombers. YOu are looking at the wrong loss rate since you aren't taking into the account the planes Rader will not produce in the future thanks to that bombing. You MUST factor that in to Japanese losses to figure out a true loss ratio. He might shoot down 50 bombers for 50 fighters. You then say that's a 1:1 loss ratio and strategic bombing doesn't work. On the other hand if you knock out 100 airframe points of fighter production then over the next 6 months he will fail to produce an additional 600 fighters. So, over 6 months those 50 bombers you have lost the use of will cost Rader the use of 650 fighters. Suddenly that looks like a bargain. It is also the reason why strategic bombing does more than fighter sweeps. Fighter sweeps kill on the day, strategic bombing removes divisions and squadrons from the enemy's ORBAT for months to come.

Also, your losses are high... Of course they are you took your 4Es and you smashed them into the most heavily defended enemy bases possible. What did you expect would happen? What happened to hitting lightly defended bases first for easy wins in order to build your strategy gradually? Honestly, you could have attacked one of the satellite bases and faced 1/3rd of the fighters and taken less than a third of the losses and still destroyed fighter airframe production.

Don't look on the strategy as being the issue here. The issue is that, by your own reckoning, you flew 400 bombers into the middle of 1500 defending fighters. What did you think was going to happen? The fighter pilots were all going to take the day off? Of course not [:D]

You attacked into strength and you paid the price for it. Of course you don't HAVE to attack into such strength every time. If losses are getting you down maybe you should try picking off the easy targets FIRST instead of charging right into the line of 50 machineguns head-on?
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JeffroK
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by JeffroK »

I almost agree with Nemo[:D]

Well actually I do, a bombing campaign is not a 2 week blitzkrieg.

It will take a long time to wear down japanese industry.

Something I would add is to consider the worth of 2-3 fighter sweeps of other targets on the day plus IFF you give the bombers a day off do some sweeps to keep up the pressure.

1 positive to hitting airbases is that they must be getting pretty crowded now, got any cheap bombers or P70's that can do some night bombing.

PLUS, if you land on Honshu, why Ominato, again look through the options and sus out the defenders. Also look at the transport network, can you lnd at some bases which would block reinforcement to your main landings?
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cwDeici
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by cwDeici »

So, how many fighters and bombers do Rader and Greyjoy have, roughly, in total?

Thanks for any answers!
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

Here i am. Sorry but GF kept me busy for the whole saturday evening/night...she just left

Ok, before catching up with your comments guys, let me show the result of our last raid.

Losses have been pretty high...The T-bolts this time (probably due to the coordination problem and also to some high fatigue levels) have gotten the lower hand...and they suffered terribly.

We lost a good number of aces and a high number of air frames (which, despite the high rate of production, is too high to be kept).

However the raid went good. Rader told me that he had his radars set on strat move mode...what a mistake[:D]

Anyway we almost wiped out the KI-83 production at Hammamtsu as you can see.

Imho this is a very important achievement, considering how Rader has used these frames in his other games (Jzanes said that these bastards were able to wipe out of the skies anything he had).

Now we need to rest for some turns and then we'll be able to mount another mission.

Loading operations in WC continues and we've almost finished. It's a pain to load all those TFs...they always reach the port limit ops points so i have to load one TF and only one each turn...

For the rest in SOPAC things are on the move. Japanese perimeter is shrinking around Salamua in NG as we're pushing hard there.

More squadrons are pouring into NOPAC in order to mass more fighters and bombers to Hokkaido in the next weeks.

The more i think of it and the more i find an invasion of Japan the only possible solution to deal with Rader's inner defences.



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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

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JohnDillworth
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by JohnDillworth »

Curious as to you sub deployment.  Looks like most of them are in the Northern part of the HI.  As he is probably bringing in tons of troops to the Southern ports of the HI whay not station most of them there?  Should be able to pick off some tankers too.  Don't hear much about your subs, how are they doing?
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Curious as to you sub deployment.  Looks like most of them are in the Northern part of the HI.  As he is probably bringing in tons of troops to the Southern ports of the HI whay not station most of them there?  Should be able to pick off some tankers too.  Don't hear much about your subs, how are they doing?

Hi John,

yes, i'm using my subs in a defensive posture. They are forming a double line (in depth) of screen from Ominato down to Marcus and Wake and they are also deployed between Palmyra and PH.
It's really useless to send to anywhere close to 8 hexes from a Japanese base. Rader has an ASW combined system, composed of Betties/Helens on ASW role and several ASW TFs with the dreaded E class...every time i tried to get between PI and HI i simply lost the boat sent there....after a while i learnt that it's simply pointless to use subs in the "normal" way in this match. better to keep them as a screening force for any KB attempt of penetrating in my interior lines of communication.

Sad but true
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
Don't know how many i've lost today....the turn hasn't come yet...but i bet another good run.... i cannot go on a lot like that, you know...losses are pretty even for the high allied production rates of 44....
How are your 2EB pools? Are they in range for airfield suppression? If not Korea might be an option for putting lots of stuff in range. I guess if you go for Korea any further invasions of the HI's go on hold for quite a bit

My 2Es pools are decent (not perfect but decent) but i'm in range only to suppress AF in northern Honshu...where there are no factories left and where Rader isn't defending his air space no more...

For sure they will be usefull when the time will come for ground support attacks and for AF interdiction in a possible invasion of Northern Japan...
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

i think your right about invading honshu, the bombing campaign will just keep him distracted awhile and force him on defense while you amass the largest possible amphibious landing whit the full support of all your air assets and your CV fleet and bombardment, i think you can bring so much firepower to bear and soften up that point across the channel any defense will crumble, then you go across with one massive stack, and work your way forward gaining some closer airbases as you go, he can try to counter attack, but as long as you have your ground forces accross and keep your CVs alive theres nothing he can do, although it will be tempting for him to cut your men off like you said, you jsut have to have your air prepared for that move

Yes, with Hakkodate at level 9 AF, backed up by Sapporo and other AFs in Hokkaido, i think a landing in northern Japan can be possible. CVEs will be able to give local air support while the CVs will have the role of dealing with a possible KB intervention.
My surface fleet along with my LBA fighters and bombers should be able to deal with the japanese assets.
However Rader will have so much LCUs that for sure it will be bloody...but fun like hell!!![:D]
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: princep01

Ser Greyjoy....why the long face and worried countenance? You look like you lost your best friend....and of course, since that is me, I'm standing right here. What seems to be plaguing your spirits at this happy time? Did one of the girls bite you? Did that idiot Dance with Me Whatever come calling for your head. What is it?

Those what? Those bombers? You lost how many? Oh, not to worry, it is May of 44 and you are thrashing those LYBs all over the place. Why cry over a few lost bombers. You killed how many? That's a lot of fighters and you bombed his factories to little tiny bits and pieces. Stop fretting like an 8th grade schoolgirl who just got dumped by her first "true love". Geez, you're starting to depress me....and you do remember how I get when depressed, no?

There; that's more like it. Go help the boys repair some of the damaged 4Es and I'm sure you'll feel a lot better. I think you'll be even happier when you look that turn over carefully and see how you tweaked the LYB's noses and count all those fighters you smushed. Just listen to General Nemo and a few other trusted leiutenants and I'm sure you'll have the buggers on their knees by Christmas. Now run along. I've going to have dinner with an old friend (evil smile).

princep Bolton

My master, My Lord,

You are right. I shall not be depressed no more. I have to keep focused on the main objective which now is to kill his third generation fighter productions... My 4Es pools are back to 0 now after only 2 raids and i'll have to slow down the operations a bit... but i see the light at the end of the tunnell...light even in DreadFort cages[:)]
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

GJ, given the A2A combat algorithm the Ki-83 has to square off vs P-=47s and P-51s before it can even get at the bombers. THere it will die in droves as do all twin-engined fighters. It shouldn't since the combat algorithm should have a zerstoerer toggle to let you designate certain groups as seeking to avoid contact with fighters and ONLY go after the bombers - just as happened in real life - but the game model is the way the game model is.

Are u sure Nemo? Because if the KI-83 works like the KI-45, then my P-47s and 51s will have a really hard time in dealing with it. It's faster, more manovrable at all alt and has a better armament than anything i can put in line....
In his other games Rader has given Jzanes many headhaces with this beast which is able to sweep anything the allies have and so clear the way for his Kamikaze...


I'm sure what you meant to say was that you can't use the 4Es to close his AFs since that would be a misdirection of strategic assets at this point in time. [:D]
ORIGINAL: Nemo121

As to the bombers. YOu are looking at the wrong loss rate since you aren't taking into the account the planes Rader will not produce in the future thanks to that bombing. You MUST factor that in to Japanese losses to figure out a true loss ratio. He might shoot down 50 bombers for 50 fighters. You then say that's a 1:1 loss ratio and strategic bombing doesn't work. On the other hand if you knock out 100 airframe points of fighter production then over the next 6 months he will fail to produce an additional 600 fighters. So, over 6 months those 50 bombers you have lost the use of will cost Rader the use of 650 fighters. Suddenly that looks like a bargain. It is also the reason why strategic bombing does more than fighter sweeps. Fighter sweeps kill on the day, strategic bombing removes divisions and squadrons from the enemy's ORBAT for months to come.

Yes...you're right...gotta look at the positive side of the equation...even tough it's hard not to feel those terrible losses i'm suffering... pilots and airframes are one of the most valuable asset of this game and experienced pilots are very difficult to be created...so every loss is a hit right into my heart...
ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Also, your losses are high... Of course they are you took your 4Es and you smashed them into the most heavily defended enemy bases possible. What did you expect would happen? What happened to hitting lightly defended bases first for easy wins in order to build your strategy gradually? Honestly, you could have attacked one of the satellite bases and faced 1/3rd of the fighters and taken less than a third of the losses and still destroyed fighter airframe production.

Don't look on the strategy as being the issue here. The issue is that, by your own reckoning, you flew 400 bombers into the middle of 1500 defending fighters. What did you think was going to happen? The fighter pilots were all going to take the day off? Of course not [:D]

You attacked into strength and you paid the price for it. Of course you don't HAVE to attack into such strength every time. If losses are getting you down maybe you should try picking off the easy targets FIRST instead of charging right into the line of 50 machineguns head-on?

Well, the "light" defended objectives have already been destroyed (Harbin factories, Sentai and Hochihate ones)...now that i've wiped out the rafinery at Aika there's nothing left of any value which is lightly defended. The only objectives of value are beyond the "red line"...where thousands of Rader's fighters are guarding...
But however, even if i do feel those losses taken, i'm pretty ok with the results....more than 300 a/c factories have been taken out in the last 2 raids....
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Nemo121
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by Nemo121 »

I'll paraphrase Stalin to you,
A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths but a statistic.

As a Soviet I'd say that right now is the time to spend your men and materiel in order to achieve strategically decisive goals. If it costs you 10,000 pilots then so be it.

You are, now, at that point in time where you can trade a short period of higher operational tempo and losses for a much, much longer period of lower operational tempo and losses per unit time but, overall, higher losses.


Basically you are in the situation of Montgomery in 1944 in North-Western Europe where he simply couldn't sustain high losses per unit time but COULD sustain much higher losses spread over a long period such that losses per unit time were less. This is the logistical necessity which drove the disagreement between focused thrust vs broad front advances --- and not that egomania crap bad researchers always reach for as an easy answer.


Bottom line: Those pilots aren't your friends. They are assets to be expended in the achievement of worthwhile goals. Hell, even if they were all your friends it'd still be your job to send them to their deaths in order to achieve national policy objectives.



Ki-83...
I've had it in games and had it used against me. With proper utilisation it is effective BUT every one has an opportunity cost of 2 x N1K5s or J7W1s and it is vulnerable to sweeps, escorts and CAP, particularly when you take into account the fact that it is 100% more effective than similarly fast and well-armed fighters.

Logistics, it is all about logistics. Having a brilliant fighter which costs as much to make as 2 excellent fighters is likely to be a losing proposition.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
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GreyJoy
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RE: HOkkaido conquered

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: cwDeici

So, how many fighters and bombers do Rader and Greyjoy have, roughly, in total?

Thanks for any answers!

Don't kow about Rader.... here's my situation

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