Pilot feedback for MichaelM (no greyjoy please)

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

IJN pilot replacement rates in Scen. 2 are:

320/month in 1941 [1* = 320]
290/month in 1942 [12* = 3480]
680/month in 1943 [12* = 8160]
680/month in 1944 [""]
880/month in 1945 [12* = 10560]
480/month in 1946, if they're still going [12* = 5760]

So, to take the 42-45 period you have:

3480 + 8160 + 8160 + 10560 or 30360 pilot replacements + 2200 initial pool. Bit more than 9600...

Same numbers for the IJA are:

320/month in 1941 [320]
310/month in 1942 [3720]
815/month in 1943 [9780]
1215/month in 1944 [14580]
1615/month in 1945 [19380]
615/month in 1946, if they're still going [7380]

So, for the 42-45 period again you have:

3720 + 9780 + 14580 + 19380 or 47460 pilot replacements + 2802 initial pool.

However there is a seperate issue from the total amount of pilots available from the pool: there is also a hard limit on the total (Allied + Japanese) pilots. There was a seperate special beta path pinched off from about m4 that increased that hard limit but I am not sure that it is included in the later betas. The issue is that IF the Allied player keeps all units at max pilot strength, the Japanese player can be prevented from adding pilots to training groups in 1945 (when there are a bunch of them). When this limit is reached, neither side can draw any pilots for the pools (no matter how large they are) until some pilots are removed from the list. This makes it impossible to put enough "trained Kamikaze pilots" ( I flinch every time I see that phrase [:D]) in reserve for the big kami offensives in 45. If the Japanese push kami training it would be quite possible to produce a 5000 pilot reserve of 60/40 low-naval/exp pilots IF they can continue to cycle pilots through the training groups. If the pilot limit is reached, the Japanese have no option other than continuing to train which will produce enough "elite Kamikaze pilots (and that's even worse [:D]) for one strike with no deapth behind them.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: Erkki
While you're at it, maybe you can find an AAR'd PBEM Scenario 1 or DBB game where Japan survived or looks like is going to survive until the historical surrender date? AFAIK there arent any. Not many Scen 2 games either. Let alone one where Japan also has lost half of its CV fleet mid 1942, screw up with PM and Solomons and is still surviving... If we want the game to have such balance that the historical date is the median end date of PBEM games is another thing... [;)]

That's actually a good point... has there ever been a PBEM game where the Japanese player has won (or looks like they were going to)? (not won the war, but won the game on autovictory or points at the end?)

Maybe we can do a survey of games in the AAR section...

PZB's maybe? It's still in 1944, but I think the Japanese are doing well there.

PzB's is Scenario 2...

Mine of course will make it. [;)][:'(] But we're still in late spring 1942.

[Dan Nichols]

I looked through the entire patch notes( official through r5 beta ) and I can't find any entry that said this was changed. I would suspect that michaelm triggered something when he made a different change. As such, it might be an unintended bug generation problem. That is bug Y appears when you fix bug X.

[Itdepends]

Rader my understanding of your game with Greyjoy is that he gave you the choice at the start of the PBEM game to decide when to upgrade to the beta. Given your recent spurt of activity in requesting changes to the beta- particularly after Greyjoy took Hokkaido and started strategic bombine (RE inclusion of FOW on strat bombing targets), it might pay to consider including Greyjoy in the decisions to upgrade to future betas.

Continuing to campaign for changes to the beta which benefit Japan when you have the sole authority to upgrade your ongoing PBEM isn't sporting old chap.

Apologies if you have already/recently discussed this with Greyjoy.

Regards,

Daniel

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: rader

I thought I would chime in on the beta change about not being able to draw pilots out of their training cycle until training is complete (one of the changes in the beta patch.

I have been out of navy pilots for well over a year (actually, I think since late 1942). I am completely unable to train navy kamikaze pilots (I will never be able to use a navy kamikaze group).

Now, it's mostly my own fault. I have probably lost over 12,000 navy pilots in the game so far, and I have been reckless with pilots to say the least. Thus I'm not complaining, just giving some feedback regarding the change in the beta release. Is it intended that the Japanese should have a strict limit on the pilots they can put into the game (and thus in a high attrition game will be unable to use kamikazes)?

There never was 'beta' change to stop pilots from being drawn from the training pool.
There was one change to stop players from continually drawing average exp pilots once the pool was empty. This was a left over from WITP days and was a bug.
Another change was to draw low exp named pilots once replacement pool expired.
If the pilot pool selection is REPLACEMENT and no pilots left in main pool, then it should be taking the cream of the trainees.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: michaelm


There never was 'beta' change to stop pilots from being drawn from the training pool.
There was one change to stop players from continually drawing average exp pilots once the pool was empty. This was a left over from WITP days and was a bug.
Another change was to draw low exp named pilots once replacement pool expired.
If the pilot pool selection is REPLACEMENT and no pilots left in main pool, then it should be taking the cream of the trainees.

Ah, I'm pretty sure it dosen't do this: it says 'out of pilot slots' and dosen't let you draw pilots anymore. This started in one of the betas (can't recall which and it doesn't say in the patch notes). Sorry [:(]

Excellent work though Michael!!! [:)]

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

Rader my understanding of your game with Greyjoy is that he gave you the choice at the start of the PBEM game to decide when to upgrade to the beta. Given your recent spurt of activity in requesting changes to the beta- particularly after Greyjoy took Hokkaido and started strategic bombine (RE inclusion of FOW on strat bombing targets), it might pay to consider including Greyjoy in the decisions to upgrade to future betas.

Continuing to campaign for changes to the beta which benefit Japan when you have the sole authority to upgrade your ongoing PBEM isn't sporting old chap.

Apologies if you have already/recently discussed this with Greyjoy.

Regards,

Daniel

I don't have sole authority at all. It is most definitely a joint decision. It's just that we haven't found any reason to debate upgrading or not. All updates are open to discussion, and if he wants to go back to an earlier version, that is fine with me. I'm pretty sure he's on the same page about this. I'm ok with him viewing this post and participating in the discussion, except I didn't want to give away in-game intel (that I had pilot shortages). And I'd appreciate other who might be watching not to mention this.

And regarding the pilot issue, I am definitely not plugging for anything - in fact, I specifically have not brought up this issue before because of the potential conflict of interest. But Nemo asked me to put in my two cents on this, and since the purpose of betas is to provide feedback, I thought I would pipe in just in case it was not WAD. If it is the intention of Michael to make it impossible to draw pilots from the training system, I am fine with that.

[Itdepends]

I took your OP as a request for additional pilots due to a pressing need for kamikaze's. If you and Greyjoy are agreeeing on when to upgrade to a beta then I withdraw my earlier comment. However Greyjoy may not be on the same page (or perhaps I mis interpreted what he was trying to say. The below is a quote from his AAR earlier this month.

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Just to underline that we both agreed that was Rader, being the japanese player, the one who has to decide when and if to upgrade to a new Beta

Note that the quote above is not the complete passage out of respect to Greyjoy's opsec (it has been replicated verbatim however).

Best regards,

Daniel

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: michaelm


There never was 'beta' change to stop pilots from being drawn from the training pool.
There was one change to stop players from continually drawing average exp pilots once the pool was empty. This was a left over from WITP days and was a bug.
Another change was to draw low exp named pilots once replacement pool expired.
If the pilot pool selection is REPLACEMENT and no pilots left in main pool, then it should be taking the cream of the trainees.

Ah, I'm pretty sure it dosen't do this: it says 'out of pilot slots' and dosen't let you draw pilots anymore. This started in one of the betas (can't recall which and it doesn't say in the patch notes). Sorry [:(]

Excellent work though Michael!!! [:)]

I can confirm. You cannot draw any training school pilots EXCEPT with the training squadrons that you get in '44. Until then, you are only able to draw pilots as they graduate.

This started in one of the last "q" betas ... not sure if it was 8 or 9.

As it is now, the biggest issue is that IF your kamis get activated early, as Rader states, you have no pilots to go to kami. I'm not sure that the pilot limitation prior to kami activation isn't realisitic, and it certainly is something to discuss. My understanding is that IJ did have issues with pilots ... they could produce more planes than they could train pilots, but their pilots came out of training at a high quality.

IF the above is accepted, my thought then is that keeping the current pilot training rates is appropriate, but their skill/exp level is too low (should be higher than allies by 5 - 10% as you are saying lower rates, but higher quality). You would also have to have a new software trigger that would have the training groups start to appear once the kami flag has been set, not on a fixed date as is current. The date loaded would be their default IF the kami flag has not yet been set due to game progress. Ideally, not only should the training groups start to appear with the kami flag set, but so should the kami groups themselves. Without them, an early activation of kami (say 3/44 ... happens easily in PBEM games) IJ does not have sufficient air groups to convert to kami. Even though you can buy back lost groups, you just don't have enough air groups in aggregate ... those 50 or so air groups you recieve for kami are what you need.

Otherwise, you need to allow IJ to pull pilots from the training school, as previous, and keep the current low grad skill. Players will be doing the training. This isn't the best choice, but it was like this before and it does address the key game balance issue: staffing kami groups.

As the beta is right now (r4 that I am running) you will assuredly be very short of pilots until '44, the ones you get as they graduate need even more training than their allied counterparts, and you cannot staff your kami if activated prior to 10/44 (the arrival date of the first training group). This is both counter to the historical basis as I know it and creating a pretty difficult game balance situation. I suspect that a LOT of games have the kami activation way before 10/44, a CRUCIAL defense point for the IJ.

[Nemo121]

RichardIII,

Believe me I don't think GG tested the game into 1944/45 much. When players started getting there they found many things which needed fixing. That isn't to downplay the immense achievement that WiTP was and AE is but just to put into context the BETA changes. Many of them are very much beneficial to the accuracy of the model.

I think though that you need to move away from worrying about the balance and focus on getting the model right. Maybe correcting the model changes the balance a bit but the overall balance in the game won't be affected ( IOW the Allies will still overwhelmingly crush Japan ) too much. What is important though? Modelling the conflict and sub-systems thereof accurately or making a balanced game? I would argue that if we model things accurately we'll get closer and closer to reality and whatever historical balance there was - most people on the forums would list that as their goal. Of course we all need to bear in mind that once December 8th rolls around things have already deviated from the historical timeline and so we get into modelling things on the basis of what was possible, not necessarily what was. A lot of people haven't made that mental leap - which becomes evident when these sorts of discussions start as lots of people argue for Japan or the Allies to be limited to what actually happened as opposed to modelling their capabilities. In a model catering to what ifs modelling capabilities is, IMO, the correct approach.

And at that point in time people ( like me ) who have an interest in what if mods can mod things etc etc etc from that accurate foundation.

[Nemo121]

So, am I right in my understanding that what we're seeing is probably not the end result of a conscious decision but the unanticipated consequence of a legacy bug being fixed from WiTP days?


PaxMOndo,
I wouldn't be in favour of training groups coming in all automatically being limited to producing kamis for two simple reasons:
1. It is removing an option from player control. Again we wouldn't be modelling on-map training capability but would be forcing on-map training down a particular path.

2. In any particular game if we force on-map training groups to only be kami-capable we could find that they arrive on-map long before kamis are actually activated. That might be a rare outcome but why force it if it doesn't need forcing.


Surely if a Japanese player gets on-map training groups and has a pressing need for fighter pilots it should be up to him to choose between kami-enabling them or setting them to train 100% on escort duties? Why straight-jacket them?

Model the capability to train x pilots in training groups in SOME mission and leave the freedom to the player to decide what mission that should be. Some Japanese players really abhorr kamis and want to play through without them. Let's leave them that option instead of straight-jacketing them.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

And at that point in time people ( like me ) who have an interest in what if mods can mod things etc etc etc from that accurate foundation.

+1

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

I took your OP as a request for additional pilots due to a pressing need for kamikaze's. If you and Greyjoy are agreeeing on when to upgrade to a beta then I withdraw my earlier comment. However Greyjoy may not be on the same page (or perhaps I mis interpreted what he was trying to say. The below is a quote from his AAR earlier this month.

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Just to underline that we both agreed that was Rader, being the japanese player, the one who has to decide when and if to upgrade to a new Beta

Note that the quote above is not the complete passage out of respect to Greyjoy's opsec (it has been replicated verbatim however).

Best regards,

Daniel

Hmm, I don't think we ever said it was up to the Japanese player... Anyway, I would try to discuss this with him in a way that dosen't disclose too much real-game information, i.e., the effect (being able to draw inexperience pilots into units as you could before the patches) without discussing the current Japanese situation.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

I took your OP as a request for additional pilots due to a pressing need for kamikaze's. If you and Greyjoy are agreeeing on when to upgrade to a beta then I withdraw my earlier comment. However Greyjoy may not be on the same page (or perhaps I mis interpreted what he was trying to say. The below is a quote from his AAR earlier this month.

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Just to underline that we both agreed that was Rader, being the japanese player, the one who has to decide when and if to upgrade to a new Beta

Note that the quote above is not the complete passage out of respect to Greyjoy's opsec (it has been replicated verbatim however).

Best regards,

Daniel

Hmm, I don't think we ever said it was up to the Japanese player... Anyway, (if Michael if change it to the way it used to be) I would try to discuss this with him in a way that dosen't disclose too much real-game information, i.e., the effect (i.i., being able to draw inexperience pilots into units as you could before the patches) without discussing the current Japanese situation (i.e., a current shortage of pilots). I think the later is an unreasonable amount of current-game information.

[Crackaces]

Well Michealm has declared a vacation via a laptop problem ... [;)]

[rader]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I can confirm. You cannot draw any training school pilots EXCEPT with the training squadrons that you get in '44. Until then, you are only able to draw pilots as they graduate.

If you can draw pilots early into these training squadrons, I actually think it might not be a problem that you can't draw them into regular groups. The line of thinking here is inexperienced pilots for kamis. Now, if you get kamis early, maybe a couple of these training groups should arrive early too. But that probably requires changing the scenario. Actually, I think the whole emergency reinforcement situation could be fleshed out a little more, with other triggers and emergency releases.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I can confirm. You cannot draw any training school pilots EXCEPT with the training squadrons that you get in '44. Until then, you are only able to draw pilots as they graduate.

If you can draw pilots early into these training squadrons, I actually think it might not be a problem that you can't draw them into regular groups. The line of thinking here is inexperienced pilots for kamis. Now, if you get kamis early, maybe a couple of these training groups should arrive early too. But that probably requires changing the scenario. Actually, I think the whole emergency reinforcement situation could be fleshed out a little more, with other triggers and emergency releases.

Now Rader you are begining to see the problems in Oz, India, WC .. for the Allies. Here a coming are the IJ way above whatever the IJ were able to capture or project power historically but the Allies are bound to historical withdrawals. So .... Just when the IJ are attacking .. mandatory withdrawal ..[8|] In your case, the shoe is on the other foot ..[;)]

I have accepted the input that PP's govern the pace of the game but could also be used as a balancing act for the conditions you describe including bringing back "withdrawed" units.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

So, am I right in my understanding that what we're seeing is probably not the end result of a conscious decision but the unanticipated consequence of a legacy bug being fixed from WiTP days?

honestly, do not know. As noted above, Michael is out due to laptop death. We'll prolly find out in a few days.

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

PaxMOndo,
I wouldn't be in favour of training groups coming in all automatically being limited to producing kamis for two simple reasons:
1. It is removing an option from player control. Again we wouldn't be modelling on-map training capability but would be forcing on-map training down a particular path.

2. In any particular game if we force on-map training groups to only be kami-capable we could find that they arrive on-map long before kamis are actually activated. That might be a rare outcome but why force it if it doesn't need forcing.


Surely if a Japanese player gets on-map training groups and has a pressing need for fighter pilots it should be up to him to choose between kami-enabling them or setting them to train 100% on escort duties? Why straight-jacket them?

Model the capability to train x pilots in training groups in SOME mission and leave the freedom to the player to decide what mission that should be. Some Japanese players really abhorr kamis and want to play through without them. Let's leave them that option instead of straight-jacketing them.

Nemo,
A good arguement, I'm not against either way.

But I think the additional triggers (which would be the best fix) is beyond the scope of the beta ... so we are going to get some compromise ...not sure what.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: rader

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I can confirm. You cannot draw any training school pilots EXCEPT with the training squadrons that you get in '44. Until then, you are only able to draw pilots as they graduate.

If you can draw pilots early into these training squadrons, I actually think it might not be a problem that you can't draw them into regular groups. The line of thinking here is inexperienced pilots for kamis. Now, if you get kamis early, maybe a couple of these training groups should arrive early too. But that probably requires changing the scenario. Actually, I think the whole emergency reinforcement situation could be fleshed out a little more, with other triggers and emergency releases.

Agree, but the triggers ... suspect it might be beyond the scope of the beta ... may be not. I'm also wishing for a new alienware computer ... i'd take the triggers, but settle for the new comp. [;)]

[Alfred]

This is not a coding issue. It is a scenario design issue if we accept that it is a valid concern, which I am not convinced. For each "historical" argument adduced in support of increasing the pilot numbers to accomodate the desired operational kamikaze tempo use (but never achieved historically), there is also a "historical" arguement which nullifies the feasibility of the desired operational kamikaze tempo use.

I certainly see great potential to break the game with the total pilot array being 50k, or 70k if the special increased pilot array beta is used. Too much hoarding of pilots will break the pilot array.

Alfred