1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

[IdahoNYer]

I wouldn't pull back to fast near Leningrad either. The Volkov River (with swamps) and the Valdai Hills are slow go ground which will kill lots of Russians if they press here. And it will be slow go.

Fortify the land bridge two or three deep. This area and up toward Veliki Luki are the avenues for a rapid Soviet attack north of the Pripet.

He's not going to go through the marshes, just a question of where he's going to push harder, north or south of the marshes.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

I wouldn't pull back to fast near Leningrad either. The Volkov River (with swamps) and the Valdai Hills are slow go ground which will kill lots of Russians if they press here. And it will be slow go.

Fortify the land bridge two or three deep. This area and up toward Veliki Luki are the avenues for a rapid Soviet attack north of the Pripet.

He's not going to go through the marshes, just a question of where he's going to push harder, north or south of the marshes.

The only way the Axis can get reserves is by shortening the line. If the Axis insist on staying this far forward up north, I would merely pile on everything in the south, obliterate that, and eventually bypass the entire northern concentration of forces by marching into Poland from the Ukraine. I'll also collect a Romanian surrender and a crack up in the Axis Balkan position generally.

The north is a sideshow. It's also potentially the largest self sustaining POW camp for the Wehrmacht.

He needs to pull back. A lot.

[ComradeP]

The problem with the north is that if you retreat to a shorter line (Narva, south to Pskov and south to the Daugava river) that there isn't a lot of terrain to hide behind and that there's a lot of clear terrain.

Attacking in the Ukraine is great because of all the clear terrain, there is however a very large "but": attacking from the Ukraine into Poland is less great, as there are not all that many clear hexes that really get you anywhere in the area.

If resistance in the south stiffens because reinforcements are transferred there from the north, and the Axis pullback, I might actually be inclined to move a large amount of mobile forces to the Baltic states and see if I can get to Koenigsberg. The Soviets can move forces along interior lines using rail movement much faster than the Axis can. You could even make a push, wait for the Axis to move reinforcements there and then move your own mobile units back to the Ukraine again. Few people think out of the box when faced with a determined defense, they don't think about moving forces to where the enemy is weak but prefer to move in more forces.

That's why defending forward in the north is not a bad defensive strategy per se, even if it requires more troops. To be honest however, I don't think a credible defense of the Baltic states up to the Daugava can be done with anything less than the 3 armies he has deployed in much better defensive terrain currently.

[IdahoNYer]

Flaviux - Agreed you can't hold on forever, thats not the issue. Its a question of WHEN to pull out - what should trigger the withdrawal off the Volkov Line, what trigger to leave Leningrad to the Finns etc. In the meantime, you can pull burnt out divisions off the line where the Soviet is pressing and place them up in the Valdai Hills area to refit. This will free up divisions to the main fight.

As far as triggers go - In the South, one is the Soviets crossing the Dneipr between Cherkassy and Kiev - time to think about pulling out of the Dniepr Bend. The Pripet is a great barrier. Use it.
In the Center, if the Soviets push to Vitebsk, yes, time to pull back in the north toward Riga.

Of course, its all a matter of timing. And I'm certainly not the best judge of that having just lost an army in my PBEM.....

[Flaviusx]

Now would be a good time. Let the Soviet waste the entire summer of 44 up north chasing ghosts and maybe chewing a bit on Leningrad. If the German can stabilize his line at, say, Riga and the Dvina come mud, he's doing splendidly imo. That's still a long ways from Berlin and the clock is ticking. It's also a much shorter line. The reserves thus created can help down south where things are becoming critical -- this is where the war is being decided.

It's all about beating the clock here.

[Tarhunnas]

The Dvina line is not much shorter, and as several people have pointed out, terrain is much more favorable for the defense farther east. The Soviets are not attacking up north now anyway, so retreating now is just giving them a lot of ground for free. I have no doubt I will have to retreat there sooner or later, but the time is not now IMO.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 164. August 3 1944.

Another little mishap in the Dnepr bend. I no longer have the forces to free encircled groups, and my weak lines makes it easier for the Soviets to surround pockets here and there.

[Tarhunnas]

Here is an overview of the enire front turn 164.

[Tarhunnas]

And here is OOB and losses Turn 164.

[Tarhunnas]

Production turn 164. The extra armaments ar long gone, and it is interesting to note that I am already building up a manpower surplus again. It appears that German armaments production is still below where it should be.

[Tarhunnas]

It is interesting to note that Soviet strength is considerably larger than that given by Glantz in "Titans" for the same period, 6,600,000 on 1 sept 1944. This despite the Soviets having suffered considerable heavier casualties both in manpower and production lost in this game than historically. German strength is also slightly above, Glantz gives it as 2,042,000 at the same time. My Axis minor allies also seems to be slightly above above the historical numbers.

[sveint]

Very interesting game. I can't wait to get that far in, looks like good fun (furthest I am is Jan 1944).

I wouldn't withdraw too much except to avoid pockets. Victory conditions are based on the ground you hold.

[Peltonx]

By late 44 Russia was running out of men. They had to inlist millions of kids, old men and women to fill out non combat jobs and a few combat ones.

Russian loses increased every yr of the war from 41 to 44.

As far as wite goes moral is the key # .

An infantry division with 12,000 men and 85+ moral has a CV of 15ish.
Another division with 12,000 men and 60 moral will have a CV of about 5ish.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Production turn 164. The extra armaments ar long gone, and it is interesting to note that I am already building up a manpower surplus again. It appears that German armaments production is still below where it should be.

I am in a game mid 43(1.05) and I have allot 250,000 armaments built up and increasing every turn.

The huge drain on armaments comes when you get a units pocketed. This is a very screwed up part of the game that needs to be fixed.

The 1 unit comes back and sucks up allot of manpower and armament pts automaticly. IF you had a chose to switch off or on refit before the next logistic phase this would greatly help you out.

Its a major design issue that needs to be addressed at some point.

If you could rebuild the divisions when you wanted as GHC you could control your armament pts better and moral.

The units come back with sht moral and hog manpower and equipment. I personally want the replasements and equipment going to front line high moral units and not POS units.

Pelton

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 166. August 17 1944.

The Soviet hordes are rolling west in the Dnepr bend! They are evidently concentrating their strength in the South. Otherwise, the Dnepr line is creaking, but holding for now.

[IdahoNYer]

Without a significant fortification line behind the Dniepr, this looks to be a meatgrinder for the Wehrmacht. Are you planning on fighting forward or delaying rapidly west?

[krupp_88mm]

I say fight forward till mud take your losses, you want that river whats left of it for defense, you need it to prevent him attacking all along the front,, then after mud is over as soon as it looks like your in danger and your forts built over mud will no longer hold begin a fast withdraw west to the mountains hopefully dutring winter when the soviets are stronger and your river will no longer protect you anyway, then spring of 45 you can fight him in heavily favorable terrain in a much shorter line i think you should be able to hold there through 45 since you arrive in good order and later than historical

i think if you withdraw now its too early he will end up at your doorstep in winter and havea chance at fording some of your last line rivers easily

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

Without a significant fortification line behind the Dniepr, this looks to be a meatgrinder for the Wehrmacht. Are you planning on fighting forward or delaying rapidly west?

It's hard to build any fortifiactions above level 2 nowadays, even with extensive advance planning, and level 2 forts are just swept away when the reds reach them. It's a meat grinder whatever I do, except withdraw 3 hexes every turn, but it feels too early for that...

[gingerbread]

Those Guard Tank & Mech Corps have an NS of 80 now, so it's not surprising that they make some ground. Guard Inf in a Guards Army reaches 75 and there seems to be quite a few of them.

I hope that the fort & engineer issue is up for discussion in the development team.

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

I hope that the fort & engineer issue is up for discussion in the development team.

Which issue?

Before the current fort version there was a lot of complaints about 4 or 5 hex level 4 fort belts and how it prevented a war of movement...