1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

[Flaviusx]

The people demanded a nerf to fort spam, and by God, we delivered!

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The people demanded a nerf to fort spam, and by God, we delivered!

Might there be a middle ground somewhere...?

[DTurtle]

Hmm, I seem to recall some people (I'm not naming names ) warning the German players that they would greatly miss those forts in 43-45.

[Flaviusx]

Truthfully, the maginot line stuff prior to 1.05 had to go. It was way over the top. The complaints were justified. But yeah, I'm not entirely thrilled with the results either.

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Production turn 164. The extra armaments ar long gone, and it is interesting to note that I am already building up a manpower surplus again. It appears that German armaments production is still below where it should be.

I am in a game mid 43(1.05) and I have allot 250,000 armaments built up and increasing every turn.

The huge drain on armaments comes when you get a units pocketed. This is a very screwed up part of the game that needs to be fixed.

The 1 unit comes back and sucks up allot of manpower and armament pts automaticly. IF you had a chose to switch off or on refit before the next logistic phase this would greatly help you out.

Its a major design issue that needs to be addressed at some point.

If you could rebuild the divisions when you wanted as GHC you could control your armament pts better and moral.

The units come back with sht moral and hog manpower and equipment. I personally want the replasements and equipment going to front line high moral units and not POS units.

Pelton

I was going to bring this exact point up. The auto rebuild "feature" for the germans is bogus. Especially in the late game. Destroyed divisions and SU's should go into a pool that the german player then can select to rebuild at an ap cost similar to the way the russian player builds units.
Check out my defense of the riech AAR tons of guys getting pocketed now, and they are showing up rebuilt the next turn draining manpower that is needed at the front.

[Flaviusx]

I kind of like that idea, Baelfiin. Or, in the alternative, the ability to dial down TOE much further than just 50%. Maybe all the way to zero.

[gingerbread]

The commanders report should have a page with next turns reinforcements where you can set mode (refit/ready) and TOE%.
The fix for HQ's refit mode sucks up almost all Soviet manpower on turn 1 - there used to be ~350k left.

I think 50% is a reasonable minimum - it is wartime so mothballing is sort of gamey. But units should send elements to pool if over the set TOE%.

[Flaviusx]

The problem is that even at 50% all those new shells are going to get priority on replacements, Gingerbread, particularly the SUs. It's hard to push replacements to the front, even if set to refit. The replacements will naturally be sucked into the stuff in the rear.

[gingerbread]

Not if you can set them to ready mode. All ready share what is left after refit. Granted, the pool will probably be empty in any case, at least T3 and after, but the front units will get what they will get in the refit segment before the readies get what's left.

The Soviets shells arrive in ready mode except for the reconstituted units. These (re-con) suck up MP real bad if it is in the pool so they tie up men in a unit with lousy experience and to top it up, you have to spend rail cap for a full division for two turns if you want those men some place where they will be useful, like digging west of Moscow. If they arrived in ready mode, you'd pay far less to get it to a spot say, just east of Moscow to train.

As for SUs, you get something like 3 MC regiments total, or am I wrong here? You can build more, but that is by choice and should be budgeted.

I actually had good results from disbanding ~10 divisions with MR/Exp in low 30's. Almost 100k MP extra available in the refit phase the turn after.

[Schmart]

I agree. The re-built unit mechanism is a tad off. Reminds me of TOAW were it often seemed as though most replacements were going to rebuild units that wouldn't arrive for a long time. Seemed like a waste. In WitE, units arrive at 80-100% TOE shortly after being destroyed is also unrealistic. It often took months (even for the Russians) to build a Division back up to strength. On the German side, not all divisions were re-built. Also, I though the manual stated that re-built units were supposed to return at minimal/depleted TOE levels. As the Russians, I sometimes (but rarely) see units arrive in a depleted state. I never could figure out why they arrive like that but most other units don't...

All-in-all, yes, some control or further development of the re-built unit mechanism would be nice.

[ComradeP]

We've had the discussion about minimum TOE% levels on the tester forum, probably several times. The official answer always was that what in game terms would be lower than 50% TOE percentages were due to the effects of the war and not due to deliberate decisions. If you dial TOE%'s down to below 50%, you might as well disband the unit in most cases as it isn't going to be effective.

As to new units refitting: the easiest way to prevent that is not allowing your units to be pocketed. I agree that it is probably annoying if refitting reconstituted units drain your manpower/equipment pool, but they're doing so because you allowed them to be destroyed in the first place.

[gingerbread]

Allowing? So I should refuse to play unless the Axis player agrees to not play the Lvov opening?? Nor may he do the Bialystok pocket???

[ComradeP]

We're talking about Axis units here, the Soviets generally have the manpower (but maybe not the armaments) to get their shells back in shape. There's no reason to lose a German division before late 1942.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to new units refitting: the easiest way to prevent that is not allowing your units to be pocketed. I agree that it is probably annoying if refitting reconstituted units drain your manpower/equipment pool, but they're doing so because you allowed them to be destroyed in the first place.

???

This is a game mechanic which has no real reflection on what happened historically. Units were not built or re-built instantaneously. It took months. Units were pocketed, destroyed, and gradually re-built. The simple solution is to have re-built units arrive in unready/depleted status with less than 33% TOE.

[ComradeP]

It will take several months to get a unit back in shape in the game too. Just because a unit is at 100% TOE doesn't mean it's any good in combat.

[gingerbread]

We are not talking exclusively of Axis units however, the rule that re-con units arrive in refit mode is looking at it from an Axis perspective only.

As to Soviets having enough manpower, that was before the HQ, AB & SU refit mode fix. As I wrote some posts above, with that fix the active manpower pool at start (post logistic phase) has dropped from ~350k to 0 (+you get whatever men there were in the Arm units that rallied and then disbanded to reorganize as an Arm Brigade).

I realize that adding extra functionality to the CR is beyond WitE, but changing default mode for re-con Soviets should be eminently possible. Just a 'if Soviet then set mode to ready' when the unit to be reconstituted is queued in the reinforcement list. In fact, there is already a function to set mode to refit, so all that needs to be added is a nationality test and a different mode for Soviets.

[ComradeP]

gingerbread, the problem of reconstituted units emptying the manpower pool without anything you can do about it is a purely German problem, because reconstituted Soviet units appear as shells and are not frozen in refit mode for several turns, unlike their German counterparts.

I agree that it isn't an ideal system, far from it, but with good unit management the instances where you as the Germans have so many destroyed units around that your frontline units basically don't get new equipment should be rare.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It will take several months to get a unit back in shape in the game too. Just because a unit is at 100% TOE doesn't mean it's any good in combat.

You're talking about training a re-built unit. I'm talking about the actual strength of a new unit. BOTH would usually take several months. The reason being, first rate equipment, officers, etc, are typically designated for the front line. Second rate and obselete equipment was designated for new units in training. Nor did a newly raised unit need a full set of brand new equipment right away until it was up to strength and reasonably trained, both of which took months to attain.

My general point being that it takes months to build a unit up to strength, as well as training. The game does indeed reflect the training aspect, but not the gradual strength build-up. A new unit might get as much as a 1/3rd cadre from another unit or training school, but it typically took some time to build up the strength to 100%.

[ComradeP]

Unless the reconstituted units are the only units on refit, it will take time for their strength to increase to ~100% TOE. Only when they're the only units on refit will they tend to attract most if not all of the replacements/new equipment being produced.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
because reconstituted Soviet units appear as shells and are not frozen in refit mode for several turns, unlike their German counterparts.

Really? Perhaps there's a bug then? I'm playing a game currently as the Russians, and (free) re-built units are appearing at around 85% TOE for Rifle Divisions, and 30% (Tank) TOE for Tank Brigades (manpower elements within the units are usually at or near 100%). Both arrive in refit mode, and with morale in the mid-low 30s. Normal reinforcement units appear with anything from 15-100% TOE, in ready or depleted status and with morale in the low-mid 40s. A handfull arrive with 100% and 50 or 60 morale.