MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)

[Orm]

As a side note, for the AIO, maybe there should be something else planned to defend against "overwhelming forces" on the Northern border. What I used was designed for a "strong" force with a potential minor threat of invasion/paradrop. The Ground Strikes were very lucky, indeed, but perhaps a defense set up more than 3 hexes from the border should be considered if there are a lot of German LND around. Just a thought.

Something else is already planned. It is planned that the AIO will analyze the threats against Spain and set up depending on the threat. For most of the minor countries the AIO will use one out of several premade setups but for Spain the AIO will make its own setup. Therefore Peter just made a couple of setups showing how it could look like depending on the threat againsy Spain. In your game there was a threat versus Tangier so the AIO would have set up at least one unit to defend Tangier. Depending on the how the AIO analyzed the situation and the defence variant the AIO picked the AIO might even had put several units in Spanish Africa.

As a side note a "strong" threat was specified as 5+ enemy corps.

[brian brian]

I would sail a TRS to Canada to get that Canadian MIL....RTB to Casablanca, or to Gibraltar if one of the units there move up to defend in southern Spain later in the turn. Or to crush the Italian division that landed perhaps, if it runs ahead of any long-range air cover.

Tangier can be taken out after Ground Strikes and re-asserting control in the West Med...

Perhaps fortunately the Italians forgot to move their SUBs on their own Naval Impulse?

[Taxman66]

Just out of curiosity, what are you planning to do with 2 germany CVs?

[composer99]

I think there's 1 German CV (the one in the Construction pool) being finished and 1 CVP. It's not an unreasonable build given the attack on Spain, as the Germans have the same problem the Allies do extending air power to the middle of the Atlantic. If they seize Gibraltar, keep Tangier, and secure Morocco & Portugal, the Axis fleets can break out into the Atlantic and CVs will be useful there.

All I can say is, 20 pages in, much of which is criticism for errors real and perceived and/or backseat generalship, and a bout of pneumonia poor Red Prince must be wondering what he was thinking starting this thread. [:D]

[Orm]

Germany has a second CV, Peter Strasser (?), on pruduction as well in addition to Grav Zeppelin. Germany having two CVs that are capable to break out in the Atlantic increase the threat on the Allied shipping olines alot. The threat alone should make the Allies alocate more naval assets to protect the shipping lines and to blockade the German and Italian fleet.

This seems a low cost to me to give the Western Allies plenty to worry about.

Edit: Not that I know why Red Prince built them. I am just telling one possible use for them. Scaring the Western Allies and threatening their shipping lines.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Germany has a second CV, Peter Strasser (?), on pruduction as well in addition to Grav Zeppelin. Germany having two CVs that are capable to break out in the Atlantic increase the threat on the Allied shipping olines alot. The threat alone should make the Allies alocate more naval assets to protect the shipping lines and to blockade the German and Italian fleet.

This seems a low cost to me to give the Western Allies plenty to worry about.

Edit: Not that I know why Red Prince built them. I am just telling one possible use for them. Scaring the Western Allies and threatening their shipping lines.

If the Axis take both ends of the Med, the CVs can also enter the Indian Ocean.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I think there's 1 German CV (the one in the Construction pool) being finished and 1 CVP. It's not an unreasonable build given the attack on Spain, as the Germans have the same problem the Allies do extending air power to the middle of the Atlantic. If they seize Gibraltar, keep Tangier, and secure Morocco & Portugal, the Axis fleets can break out into the Atlantic and CVs will be useful there.

All I can say is, 20 pages in, much of which is criticism for errors real and perceived and/or backseat generalship, and a bout of pneumonia poor Red Prince must be wondering what he was thinking starting this thread. [:D]

I think as the CW, I would really start to worry if the Germans and the Italians are both going to put an AMPH on the spiral this turn. That could mean a Sealion in late 1941. Not unheard of either. So defending Gibraltar is going to be really important now.

And lets praise Red Prince: he did say he was an inexperienced player and asked our advice. And for such a player, he's doing reasonably well when he's attacking. He looks for opportunities, weak places and exploits them quite well. Defending, however, is far more difficult in WiF. It usually takes some time, before one really knows how to prepare for things to happen not only a couple of impulses ahead, but even turns ahead (as the CW player must do. It's really difficult to play the CW, especially when the dice are against you).
Also, we are all just like the real generals and admirals. We never seem to agree on the advice given to Red Prince. So he can't do well, can he, since always someone else is right or wrong...

Personally, I really respect the work he's doing in showing all this to us. It gives me a lot of pleasure watching this thread every day, just to see how things are looking. I'm really impressed at the look of things (can't wait to buy the thing when it gets on the market, but that goes for a lot of people here, I believe...).

Also, I like to trash him as one of my first opponents in MWIF (if he takes on my challenge). This than probably would mean I might get trashed by him, but hey: it's about having fun, isn't it...

[paulderynck]

It's fun until someone loses a die.

(perhaps thrown irretrievably, or crushed with a hammer... Hmmm, could get expensive in MWIF... better to be sporting about such things)

[Taxman66]

I was wondering what 'he' was going to do with them, as they seem to be being built instead of the subs.

I don't want to sound like I'm too hung up on the subs, I just think they're better investment... and I'd kinda like to see how the new sub/anti-sub plays out.

[composer99]

and I'd kinda like to see how the new sub/anti-sub plays out

(from Taxman66 at #589)

Good point. Red Prince, I know you're playing with light cruisers (CLs). Are you also playing with convoys in flames ASW units?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: composer99

and I'd kinda like to see how the new sub/anti-sub plays out

(from Taxman66 at #589)

Good point. Red Prince, I know you're playing with light cruisers (CLs). Are you also playing with convoys in flames ASW units?

ASW units are in the game but I haven't written the code for the additional subphase in naval combat (for the Pre-fire Attack). The subphase is present but it is just a dummy stub-end at this point.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I think there's 1 German CV (the one in the Construction pool) being finished and 1 CVP. It's not an unreasonable build given the attack on Spain, as the Germans have the same problem the Allies do extending air power to the middle of the Atlantic. If they seize Gibraltar, keep Tangier, and secure Morocco & Portugal, the Axis fleets can break out into the Atlantic and CVs will be useful there.

All I can say is, 20 pages in, much of which is criticism for errors real and perceived and/or backseat generalship, and a bout of pneumonia poor Red Prince must be wondering what he was thinking starting this thread. [:D]

[:D]

To some extent, yeah, I was thinking "am I nuts?"

But I'm having fun with it. Some days I can manage to spend 6 or 7 hours on 4-5 impulses. Some I can't think about it at all, but that generates a lot of speculation (see above notes which I didn't even look at until just now).

Believe me, working on this thread hasn't slowed my testing done by more than 15%, I'd say, and I'm really glad that it seems to be popular. Many errors are real, and some are, as you say, perceived . . . those are often ones that have to do with moves I make and don't fully explain. I do actually think several impulses ahead (at least), and some moves seem wrong when I don't explain those plans. Some just are wrong, even with my plans.

Honestly, I'm not sure what I intentionally planned to do with the German CVs. I just kind of figured that early on Germany can spare the BP to get them on the spiral, and it's something that should annoy the CW . . . just the fact that the Germans will eventually be able to put air power at sea. No hidden agendas here, but you do have a point about the need for them with Spain and Portugal coming into the picture.

To answer another question, the Italians didn't "forget" to move the SUBs -- they were out of supply until a German HQ got within range later in the impulse, and Oil is in short supply, so I didn't want to send them yet. There is bound to be a point in the turn when a Combined impulse or another Naval impulse will be needed, so they can sail at that point.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: composer99

I think there's 1 German CV (the one in the Construction pool) being finished and 1 CVP. It's not an unreasonable build given the attack on Spain, as the Germans have the same problem the Allies do extending air power to the middle of the Atlantic. If they seize Gibraltar, keep Tangier, and secure Morocco & Portugal, the Axis fleets can break out into the Atlantic and CVs will be useful there.

All I can say is, 20 pages in, much of which is criticism for errors real and perceived and/or backseat generalship, and a bout of pneumonia poor Red Prince must be wondering what he was thinking starting this thread. [:D]

I think as the CW, I would really start to worry if the Germans and the Italians are both going to put an AMPH on the spiral this turn. That could mean a Sealion in late 1941. Not unheard of either. So defending Gibraltar is going to be really important now.

And lets praise Red Prince: he did say he was an inexperienced player and asked our advice. And for such a player, he's doing reasonably well when he's attacking. He looks for opportunities, weak places and exploits them quite well. Defending, however, is far more difficult in WiF. It usually takes some time, before one really knows how to prepare for things to happen not only a couple of impulses ahead, but even turns ahead (as the CW player must do. It's really difficult to play the CW, especially when the dice are against you).
Also, we are all just like the real generals and admirals. We never seem to agree on the advice given to Red Prince. So he can't do well, can he, since always someone else is right or wrong...

Personally, I really respect the work he's doing in showing all this to us. It gives me a lot of pleasure watching this thread every day, just to see how things are looking. I'm really impressed at the look of things (can't wait to buy the thing when it gets on the market, but that goes for a lot of people here, I believe...).

Also, I like to trash him as one of my first opponents in MWIF (if he takes on my challenge). This than probably would mean I might get trashed by him, but hey: it's about having fun, isn't it...

All I can say is thank you. Thank you very much. [&o]

And, I do accept your challenge -- as long as you don't make me play the CW !!! [;)]
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[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: composer99

and I'd kinda like to see how the new sub/anti-sub plays out

(from Taxman66 at #589)

Good point. Red Prince, I know you're playing with light cruisers (CLs). Are you also playing with convoys in flames ASW units?

Yes, I am. I'll repost the rules choices I made (interesting combinations, some of them).

The CVs are not being built at the expense of SUBs, actually. Germany has been giving 2 RP, 2 Oil, and 3 BP per turn to the Italians, so for the moment its assets are limited. Now that Yugoslavia is aligned, and hopefully Iraq will be Italian soon, too (from the Italian POV), the production capacity of Italy will increase a lot (as will Germany when Spain and Portugal submit to domination), so I'll be able to start the full-scale SUB program soon.

[Red Prince]

After reviewing what can be done, the CW needs to try to get into, and stay in, the W. Med in sufficient force.

The reason for this is that the Italians are going to use a Combined impulse next to pick up the 2 German units that just took Marseilles (including a white print SS) and let them debark into Tangier. Looks like the CW won't be able to take back the Spanish Sahara very easily at all . . . If things go poorly in Spain, the Germans might even get Morocco away from the French!
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Edit: There is a fairly strong fleet that could contest the E. Med, but no air cover (and the Italians have a NAV there), and the Spanish fleet can try to contest the W. Med, but again there is no air cover -- and it isn't a very strong fleet. The CW BB fleet is going to have to go to the Bay of Biscay to defend Bilbao, which leaves very little to add to the W. Med.

Additionally, both the Red and Azanian Seas need to have at least one ship sailed to them. Also, the Italians have 2 NAV in the Reserve Pool at the moment, just waiting for Pilots to become available at the start of next turn.

[Red Prince]

At this point, I'm thinking the smartest move for the CW to make with the Spanish FTR would be to rebase it to Portugal. Yes, it's nice to have a FTR in Spain, but it has only 3 factors Air-to-Air, and about half the German LND have a similar value. Probably better to rebase it out of harm's way and use the Pilot for a better CW FTR.

I had a rough night's sleep, so I'm going to try to take another nap, and I may or may not do much with the game today, depending on how I feel after the nap, so discuss if you like, and know that the question will still probably be open for another 24 hours or so.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's fun until someone loses a die.

(perhaps thrown irretrievably, or crushed with a hammer... Hmmm, could get expensive in MWIF... better to be sporting about such things)

Yet another bonus of MWiF that can be placed on the packaging:

And, since Matrix Games Wolrd in Flames uses virtual dice, you'll never need another bandaid again!

[Red Prince]

Before I do take that nap, let me give you another thing to ponder:

I have 4 TRS/Liners as the CW. I am thinking of using them like this:

1. 3-3 TRS in Rio Muni moves to the Mozambique Channel, allowing it to RTB to Bombay later, where there is an Indian MIL -- OR it could be used to pick up Wavell next turn if he is in trouble

The next three units all start off in Casablanca

2. 4-3 TRS moves to Bay of Biscay and loads the CW MOT in Bristol
3. 4-4 TRS moves to East Coast to pick up the Canadian MIL unit in Halifax
4. 6-5 Liner moves to Cape St. Vincent --> W. Med --> Barcelona (where it picks up the Spanish 5-3 INF) --> W. Med --> Cape St. Vincent 1 Box

The last move is "risky" in that the Italians could potentially try to intercept, but I can assure the Commonwealth Admirals that this would not happen. I think the Axis would be happier trying to kill another TRS/Liner, but would not be unhappy with Barcelona being abandoned by the CW this early in M/J '40. Granted, a successful interception could kill the Liner and then the Germans could kill the INF, but it adds an impulse to the distance into Spain they can reach. This last one, #4, I'd really like to know what thoughts you have on. (Yes, my grammar is terrible -- sorry, Steve).

[Centuur]

First: the most important units of a nation who needs to transport units over sea, is the sealift. Therefore, those are the most important units to attack. Whenever you get the possibility of shooting at a TRS, do so.

The last move of the Queens, I wouldn't do. Why: because the Italians simple have to say: stop, when you sail into the W. Med. Than you've got a choice: go into the 0 box (to continue you're move) or go into the 4 box (and stop moving). You've seen in the North Sea what can happen when you've got TRS in a low box, without any other units in there. So don't bother saving that 5-3 Inf.
Also: are you going to leave Franco to die? I would first try to estimate the attack the Germans can muster onto Madrid. If it is a hopeless situation there, don't bother. However, I think it isn't going to be a large attack.

Another thing is that this turn is going to be very, very long. This means that you should move you're TRS from port to port (so that they can move again in a following impulse). So use the Queens to get that unit out of Halifax. This impulse for the CW is naval, next a land, and it is possible you are going to get another naval following that. This means the Queens are going to get the Canadian MIL into Europe/Morocco this turn. Same might be the case with the Spanish TRS, if going from port to port.

Finally: don't bother about that NAV in the E. Med. Sail, to prevent the Italian TRS from getting out of the harbour (and getting that nasty SS into Tangier). The CW can affort to lose some cruisers. Remember: if you can take a shot at enemy TRS, do so, always. Only the German and Russian ones aren't worth taking out IMHO.

[brian brian]

As a probably too frequent armchair general (that's a good one, Christopher), I just stopped by this morning before heading off over the river and through the woods (to Sedan? the east side of the Ardennes? Leningrad? Gomel???) to wish all the other armchair popcorn munching WiF fans a Happy Holidays, and especially the gracious host of this thread. Being sick in early December should pay off in ... perfect health for Christmas, I hope.

But can't we be more like armchair chiefs-of-staff? You can't win a war (or develop the greatest WWII computer wargame ever) surrounded by yes-men, just ask Hitler's ghost in Hell how that worked out for him. And how do you win a wargame played solitaire? By playing each side so well that the result comes down to the last die roll on the last turn. Red Prince definitely knows his way around a wargame....the only tactical land move I have looked at on a hex-by-hex by basis in this game is the Italian attack on Tangier, and that one was brilliant. I suspect most of the land moves have been similar.

As for 4-5 turns in 5-6 weeks ... just think, counter densities are at their lowest right now. Playing a full super deluxe game with every kit and countersheet possible, solitaire, into 1943 was the one thing that got me closest to wanting to go back to playing WiF Classic. I think one of my favorite 2008 rules is the CA/CL Damage optional, which makes combat at sea quite bloody and returns Battleships to primacy when you want to get-r-done at sea.

A thought on the current lending BP bug....it must apply only to overseas transport right now, or Germany couldn't lend to Italy? That would preclude US loans to the CW as well, but creates a situation that could be playtested in MWiF, and I'm not sure is answered explicitly in the paper rules either. Loans must go to the recipient's home country, and for (at least) once in the rules, this is explicitly defined for the CW as "Britain" (I guess no deliveries to Glasgow or Belfast then, ha).....but what happens if "Britain", (obviously the entire UK would have to be used here) is itself conquered? The CW of various Home Countries would have to pick a new, single Home Country for BP loan deliveries? This has more explicit implications in the reinforcement rules (multiple CPs, Pilots, etc), but would be good to check in the BP loan/delivery rule too. I would think this could be a slightly more delicate bit of programming for the CW countries with rules exceptions a bit different than say for the French.

[So in this game US aid to the West will have to be limited to Repairing Ships, if that can fit into US Entry strategy (perfect for the French pirates, who will now otherwise never build new units again, unless they can capture a red factory somewhere, creating some obvious strategic goals for the Allies later on). And Russia is severely handicapped by this bug so I would begin directing CW builds and on-map strategy to a major expedition to the Middle East to at least get resources to Russia overland even though Russia is rather resource rich usually. With saved oil at least a big resource bank could be built up in Siberia. I hope the Russians build some convoy points for the Caspian Sea for their own Caucasus oil at least ... It seems somehow slightly unfair to even road-test a full-on 1941 Barbarossa.]

I like finishing the Graf Zeppelin for Germany, but add one additional wrinkle of building both of the CVPs in the German force pool in 1939, as they suffer from class matching problems just as the CW does and their 1940 CVPs can't be used on the 'Zep till 1941 or later. A CV at sea with no planes in the Reserve Pool back at home is a very fragile BP investment, but then the whole build of the GZ isn't actually a very big threat to the Royal Navy once you sail it. Finishing more, hmmm. I do like building out the German construction pool once Barbarossa is well under way. As the Japanese I would even ask the Germans to do this as part of the price for an attack on Siberia. Laying down new ships is a much tougher decision and a route I think I would only go in a game with a robust Sea Lion as the Axis grand strategy of choice. (And yes, you have to keep playing after the UK is conquered. Wake the US giant too early and the Allies can recover from even that as long as they don't fail a morale check - isn't that from some other wargame?).

In the East Med right now in this game, 10 cruisers vs an Italian NAV seems like not a good match. But a single NAV won't be able to break through the AA fire that well, and those cruisers should head out there with whatever reinforcements Gibraltar can add in regardless. The advanced trick is for the CW to win a big surprise point swing and then if the Axis smugly picks an air combat, use all of the surprise points to increase AA fire. A little trickier to pull of in a solitaire game, I would perhaps use a die roll, or let each side in the game get away with this at least once (other times this happens when surface assets such as TRS need protection). My usual ftf opponent does this to me every time and my naval bombers pay the price. With 2 Italian NAVs coming in next turn, this is why the two critical builds for the CW in J/F 1940 are the Alexander HQ and their first FTR-3. Hopefully the CW can pull the American Brewster Buffalo or P-40C when building FTR2 as well. Controlling the air is the first step to controlling the sea (new in WWII). Controlling the sea is the first step to controlling the land. Controlling the land wins the game.