1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

[Tarhunnas]

And in the North, withdrawals are also the order of the day. The Finns are now defending the Volchov, in rather good shape.

[Tarhunnas]

Production turn 173. The manpower pool is growing by leaps and bounds...

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 174. October 12 1944.

Well, mud finally came, but of course at an inopportune moment. I will never free those units now! The weather shift always before the Axist turn is really a big disadvantage to the Axis, especially at this stage of the war! With random eather, I think there should be a chance that it could change between player turns as well, to balance things out.

[Q-Ball]

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

Losing the 2 SS Divisions really hurts. IIRC, you get Fresh SS in January, but this winter is going to be painful.

There is a problem with Late-War German armaments. You got the fix for the 47mm issue, but you are still running a deficit. My guess is that you are losing piles of guns in all the retreats, and that's eating-up all your armaments. I bet your artillery losses are very high.

This game has enough patches, etc, it's tough to look at it as a whole for fixes, but that one issue looks like a problem from here

[Tarhunnas]

And an overview of the entire front.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

Losing the 2 SS Divisions really hurts. IIRC, you get Fresh SS in January, but this winter is going to be painful.

There is a problem with Late-War German armaments. You got the fix for the 47mm issue, but you are still running a deficit. My guess is that you are losing piles of guns in all the retreats, and that's eating-up all your armaments. I bet your artillery losses are very high.

This game has enough patches, etc, it's tough to look at it as a whole for fixes, but that one issue looks like a problem from here

I think it is when I lose whole units that get surrounded, it takes a lot of armaments to rebuild the lost divisions. That means the units at the front gets none. All my units except reinforcements are now at ant status. It seems I always get to this state sooner or later as Axis, has happened to me three times now. At least this time it took longer than before

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

I think it's a disadvantage whichever way. With non-random, the Soviets can game it, with random it is likely to happen anyway as you will usually have some units cut off somewere each turn as the Axis. I just had bad luck it was so many of them this time and so good ones. But they are only about 1500 mean each, even the SS-divisions, so it's not as bad as it looks (but still pretty bad).

[Q-Ball]

Here is a change I propose to the Devs: Allow the Germans to immediately disband re-constituted units.

That would solve your problem, as you would just disband the new unit, and that material would go back to the pool, and back to the front.

German players wont', and shouldn't, disband those units pre-1944. But there is no reason to WAIT for them to train back up when the Soviets are at the gates of Germany

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Here is a change I propose to the Devs: Allow the Germans to immediately disband re-constituted units.

I think the best (and standardized) fix is to have all re-constituted units for both sides arrive on map as shells in depleted state. That way a player can choose/control how and when a re-built unit is build back up.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

....that is why I have come around to Random Weather. It's too easy for the Soviets to game it late in the game like that.

At least Non-Random, you can see that coming, and knowing that, I would have let those guys go the turn prior. Tough decision, though.

Losing the 2 SS Divisions really hurts. IIRC, you get Fresh SS in January, but this winter is going to be painful.

There is a problem with Late-War German armaments. You got the fix for the 47mm issue, but you are still running a deficit. My guess is that you are losing piles of guns in all the retreats, and that's eating-up all your armaments. I bet your artillery losses are very high.

This game has enough patches, etc, it's tough to look at it as a whole for fixes, but that one issue looks like a problem from here

I think it is when I lose whole units that get surrounded, it takes a lot of armaments to rebuild the lost divisions. That means the units at the front gets none. All my units except reinforcements are now at ant status. It seems I always get to this state sooner or later as Axis, has happened to me three times now. At least this time it took longer than before

Yes this is a MAJOR PROBLEM that needs to be fixed asap.
I have been pushing for a fix to this exploit for several months and have gotten zero responce.

This same issue can be exploited during blizzard if the russian player builds his army for this problem. Once you get 2 or 3 divisions cut off this effect snowballs for the rest of the blizzard or in this case for the rest of the game, none of your front line units will get replasements. If Grids games the system as some Russian players do during blizzard he will only kill of 1 or 2 divisions per turn. this will bleed your front lines for the next 6 weeks.

Is your lose ratio anything close to historical?

Historical losses on Eastern front.

——————German——————-Russian————Ratio

1944
1st—————423,000——————1,859,000———-4.4 to 1
2nd—————352,000——————1,021,000———-3 to 1
3rd—————879,000——————1,771,000———-2 to 1
4th—————297,000——————1,086,000———-3.6 to 1

I hate being right, but even with the HUGE armaments hot patch your doomed.

You did far better then historical in killed ruusians, captured factorys, captured manpower and captured land and your still going to lose game more then likely.

The game is still fixed so that no matter how horrible the russian player plays the first 2 yrs the german will lose.

Which is not anything close to historically what happened.

Keep up the good fight.

I think the problem is German morale it drops way to fast, again not a reflection of history at all.

Pelton

[ComradeP]

As explained before, newly reconstituted units arrive as shells.

As long as they're not the only units on refit, they won't consume the equipment/manpower you get during a turn, it's that simple. I agree that it can be annoying that they're frozen in refit state, but there is something you can do about it.

I'm also pretty sure you haven't been pushing for a fix "for several months" Pelton, as the discussions about the issue generally happened in the last month or so.

I'm not sure if there's going to be a "fix" considering that Gary intended the units to arrive like this and that there are ways to minimize the inconvenience of them being on refit.

[Flaviusx]

I personally have no problem in principle changing this up so that the Axis can buy eliminated units from the dead pool. They need more AP sinks anyways.

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As explained before, newly reconstituted units arrive as shells.

As long as they're not the only units on refit, they won't consume the equipment/manpower you get during a turn, it's that simple. I agree that it can be annoying that they're frozen in refit state, but there is something you can do about it.

I'm also pretty sure you haven't been pushing for a fix "for several months" Pelton, as the discussions about the issue generally happened in the last month or so.

I'm not sure if there's going to be a "fix" considering that Gary intended the units to arrive like this and that there are ways to minimize the inconvenience of them being on refit.

Im not seeing my surrounded dead germans showing up as shells that I can adjust refit on. They are showing up with with a lot of equipment and manpower, and the rest of the front is getting bupkis.
I also cant disband them right away. What is the work around that you use?

[ComradeP]

They arrive as shells, the reason you don't see them arrive as shells is the same reason you don't see Soviet units arrive as shells if no other units are refitting: they take priority when it comes to replacements because they are refitting, and the replacement segment happens after their arrival (in the same logistics phase).

With more units in refit, the reconstituted units won't suck up substantial numbers of replacements, because the replacement system will divide them between refitting units.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

As explained before, newly reconstituted units arrive as shells.

As long as they're not the only units on refit, they won't consume the equipment/manpower you get during a turn, it's that simple. I agree that it can be annoying that they're frozen in refit state, but there is something you can do about it.

I'm also pretty sure you haven't been pushing for a fix "for several months" Pelton, as the discussions about the issue generally happened in the last month or so.

I'm not sure if there's going to be a "fix" considering that Gary intended the units to arrive like this and that there are ways to minimize the inconvenience of them being on refit.

Thats clearly not whats happening.

Come on there is a very simple fix.

Have it cost 1 ap to get a german unit back. That way 85 to90% of all replasements don't end up in the sht for moral units.

[ComradeP]

It is, it just isn't happening to you because you're not refitting anything else seemingly.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

It is, it just isn't happening to you because you're not refitting anything else seemingly.

I have refit on all armor and mech units and 25 to 50% of all infantry units based 100% on moral.

Its not working its broken no matter how deep you stick your head in the sand at least 85% of all replasements go to the pocketed units the turn they come back.

Its a very stupid rule set thats getting the sht exploited out of it.

Fix it.

Pelton

[ComradeP]

It is not broken for Soviet units, and I have no reason to believe it's broken for German units either.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, like withdrawing units (which also go to refit mode automatically), you should be able to set the units to "ready" if they're frozen using the normal freezing rules. You can't change their TOE%, but you can decide whether you want them to refit or not, so they're frozen in refit stage for the logistics phase they arrive in, but you should have control over what happens after that.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, I'm offering you facts. That you don't accept them is predictable, but it doesn't change the factual nature of what I'm saying.

Its a very stupid rule set thats getting the sht exploited out of it

The only rule in that category is the HQ build-up rule, but if that would be removed, you'd probably sell your copy of the game as you can't really play without it.

[Peltonx]

How dam hard is it to have it cost 1 ap per unit?

Come on just fix the stupid thing.

Its clearly broken, you think Tarhunnas has none of his units on refit, WTH are you tring to kid?

Do you think Tarhunnass and myself are newbies or WTH?

Again when you can't refute whats clearly wrong you point fingers. Normal 2 by 3 MO.

Russians can build whatever they want and Germans can't even get you guys to turn most German replasements going to sht for moral units?

Just keep babysitting the Russian side as per normal.

Nothing wrong here poeple move along.

Its getting past the point of being funny guys to just plain lamo.

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

Eh, 1 AP for any unit is rather on the cheap side. That's fine for SUs, but I think other units ought to cost more than that. Perhaps not as much the Soviet build costs (I don't demand perfect symmetry here unlike our pal Helio) but more than 1 AP. Say 5 APs for dead divisions, and 2 APs for regimental/brigade sized units, and 1 AP for all SUs.