Question re THREATS

[RockinHarry]

In a recent test game I noticed the AI is quite adept navigating through zones that it assumes is just outside the "effective" range of enemy units most lethal wepaons. An example would be the effective range (ring) of an enemy infantry units HMGs.

In a test setup on the West-Brabant map I had two german Fortress MG Cpys (WF - HR - Fortress MG Coy / Fortress MG Bn) seperated by est. 1500m, both covering open ground in front and between them.

Now I had a Btl. of UK line foot infantry approching and once it ID´d the german MG Cpys, it selected a route just in the middle between the german units (at ~700m) and moved through without the german HMGs (12 in each Cpy!) firing a shot.

When selecting the UK infantry I noticed their effective range ring was just outside the german units positions, So I guess the germans do not consider the UK units a THREAT and let them pass unharmed.

I tweaked the german ESTAB to have german sMG42 an effective range higher than standard ESTABs, with range ring showing it ingame at ~1200m. Thus the two exemplary german HMG Cpys had an overlapping effective range of ~600m.

Although the UK units moved well in this increased HMG effective range, no german fire was triggered, cause germans do not consider the Tommies as THREATS. As said, german units were outside effective range of UK infantry units.

Other data worth of interest: Scenario has clear weather, 10am. Germans set at max aggro and entrenched weith defend orders. No boxes ticked (ambush, attack). Default unit and leader values for both Germans and Brits.

Is this how the THREAT system works in the game basically?

[Arjuna]

A picture is worth a thousand words in this case. Can you show me a screen dump and annotate it with a few arrows to show the units involed and where the British unit was moving to. To really answer your question I would need a saved game taken just before the Brit unit moves into what you think is the area where the Germans should fire at them.

There are a number of factors at play here. First we need to see if he can fire at the enemy. This depends on whether he can see the enemy and whether he can hit the enemy with effective fire. So question number one, can the German units actually see the British units? Question number two, what is the units effective range vis a vis the enemy. I'm assuming this is a soft target and hence we are talking about APer fire. Unless a specific percentage is passed into the calling function the GetEffectiveRange() returns the range at which the unit can get 33% of its max firepower. Note that this is not based on the longest max range of its weapons but on all weapons within the unit. Now if you have a German Inf Coy and it has 2 Hvy MGs and they can reach the target at long range while the rest of its over 100 other weapons cannot, then odds on it will be beyond the unit's effective range.

However, being outside the units effective rnage doesn't preclude it from firing but it does make the probability of engagement lower. And I suspect that this is what is happening in this case. But I would need to check to be sure. In any event you need to appreciate that just because a commander can see the enemy and he knows he has a couple of weapons that can fire at him he doesn';t necessarily want to engage them with a low probability of success and in so doing put his entire unit at risk of indirect fire attack from the enemy's on call assets. In WW2 the average effective range of most line inf companies was between 300 and 500 metres.

[RockinHarry]

Thanks for reply. [:)] Before I answer in more detail, I report about some more test results first. I changed the german Fortress HMG Cpy to standard german Grenadier ones (which just have 4 HMG). Everything else remained the same. No Arty or AFVs onmap for both sides forces (=pure infantry battle test setup). Clear weather, 10 AM, germans "entrenched" (partly in woods and open, according to footprint and unit info panel), Brit foot infantry approaching through clear terrain and visble upto 2-3km from the defending german grenadiers.

The Brits approach almost upto point blanc range (counter to counter = 300m, forward edge of involved units footprint indicate close combat or engagement range below 100m).

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

A picture is worth a thousand words in this case. Can you show me a screen dump and annotate it with a few arrows to show the units involed and where the British unit was moving to. To really answer your question I would need a saved game taken just before the Brit unit moves into what you think is the area where the Germans should fire at them.

There are a number of factors at play here. First we need to see if he can fire at the enemy. This depends on whether he can see the enemy and whether he can hit the enemy with effective fire. So question number one, can the German units actually see the British units? Question number two, what is the units effective range vis a vis the enemy. I'm assuming this is a soft target and hence we are talking about APer fire. Unless a specific percentage is passed into the calling function the GetEffectiveRange() returns the range at which the unit can get 33% of its max firepower. Note that this is not based on the longest max range of its weapons but on all weapons within the unit. Now if you have a German Inf Coy and it has 2 Hvy MGs and they can reach the target at long range while the rest of its over 100 other weapons cannot, then odds on it will be beyond the unit's effective range.

However, being outside the units effective rnage doesn't preclude it from firing but it does make the probability of engagement lower. And I suspect that this is what is happening in this case. But I would need to check to be sure. In any event you need to appreciate that just because a commander can see the enemy and he knows he has a couple of weapons that can fire at him he doesn';t necessarily want to engage them with a low probability of success and in so doing put his entire unit at risk of indirect fire attack from the enemy's on call assets. In WW2 the average effective range of most line inf companies was between 300 and 500 metres.

So here´s some screenies:

Initial situation: Forward german Grenadier Btl. (2 Cpys entrenched) selected, also show partly facing away from the enemy. Brits (minimum intel given) at Spillebeek, about 1500m away.

[RockinHarry]

Initial orders given to the Grenadier Cpy, to correct facing, set Aggro, ROF and Losses to MAX. "In Situ" to stick the germans in their entrenchments.

[RockinHarry]

First contact.

Note: Germans had zero orders delay for the first hour, so I could correct the defensive deployment instantly and regain the unnecessary cohesion loss.

Brit foot infantry approached unharmed to 300-400m, with the Brits obviously getting the first shot off. There was no sound nor animation playing for the Brits and germans appeared to have lost some equipment (5 rifles, 2 SMG and a Faust), but NO personnel losses.

Same for germans which at this point show the blue engage marker, as well as "engaging" in the log. There was no sound nor animation or loss of ammo for germans either.

The pic also shows area LOS from german position, as well as terrain the Brits are currently moving through.

[RockinHarry]

Checking THREATS shows that the grenadier Cpy does not feel threatened much, despite the proximity of the Brit infantry.

[RockinHarry]

Brit infantry unit selected

[wodin]

I expect you can loose weapons\equipment without losing personnel. Though ammo should decrease.

Would the in situ formation make a difference? Doesn't this mean that you don't have all the firepower facing the front?

I would detach a place a defend order with a formation I wanted per unit. Then reattach to the HQ with a defend in situ order. That way I know what formation they units in. Well I hope that works and they stay in the previous formation I gave them.

Seems to me that maybe be because they are entrenched and defending maybe they are letting the Brits come with an ambush kill zone? Though I see the ambush box isn't ticked.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

A picture is worth a thousand words in this case. Can you show me a screen dump and annotate it with a few arrows to show the units involed and where the British unit was moving to. To really answer your question I would need a saved game taken just before the Brit unit moves into what you think is the area where the Germans should fire at them.

There are a number of factors at play here. First we need to see if he can fire at the enemy. This depends on whether he can see the enemy and whether he can hit the enemy with effective fire. So question number one, can the German units actually see the British units? Question number two, what is the units effective range vis a vis the enemy. I'm assuming this is a soft target and hence we are talking about APer fire. Unless a specific percentage is passed into the calling function the GetEffectiveRange() returns the range at which the unit can get 33% of its max firepower. Note that this is not based on the longest max range of its weapons but on all weapons within the unit. Now if you have a German Inf Coy and it has 2 Hvy MGs and they can reach the target at long range while the rest of its over 100 other weapons cannot, then odds on it will be beyond the unit's effective range.

However, being outside the units effective rnage doesn't preclude it from firing but it does make the probability of engagement lower. And I suspect that this is what is happening in this case. But I would need to check to be sure. In any event you need to appreciate that just because a commander can see the enemy and he knows he has a couple of weapons that can fire at him he doesn';t necessarily want to engage them with a low probability of success and in so doing put his entire unit at risk of indirect fire attack from the enemy's on call assets. In WW2 the average effective range of most line inf companies was between 300 and 500 metres.

In the given test, I wanted to know the following:

When do germans employ their long range firepower (=HMGs). As you already explained the remaining units weapons are factored into the "effective range" hit probability. From my test results, neither lMG, nor HMG are employed in their intended roles (medium to long range fire), but off course will be used at short ranges (<300m) effectively, ...unless the odd non engaging occurance mentioned above (which I also noticed many times while playing Tut St Vith as german defender), prevents any defensive firing at all.

I can´t tell when germans use rifle fire, as both deduct same ammo (7.92mm) and I can´t yet distinguish sound FX for this case. Is rifles and MGs used simultaneously?

Before I elaborate on doctrinal and tactical use of german machine guns (which you´re surely aware of [:)] ), I´d like to know if mentioned events are within normal parameters, particularly the "non engaging" oddity.

For my first test setup (no screenies) I had the powerful HMG Cpys forward, but they as said, did not bother using their medium to long range firepower either and let advancing infantry approaching to almost point blanc range. These HMG Cpys also have 100 rifles (beside their 12 HMGs), 14 MP40, 1 lMG and their RPGs. I guess these are "watering" the units medium to long range capabiities?

I´d like to test with "pure" HMG units, but as it seems I first have to create one in the ESTAB...

no going to [>:]

[Arjuna]

Thanks for the screen dumps. How about you give me a saved game and I'll endeavour to step through it over the Xma break, which I am supposed to start today. [:)]

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I expect you can loose weapons\equipment without losing personnel. Though ammo should decrease.

Would the in situ formation make a difference? Doesn't this mean that you don't have all the firepower facing the front?

I would detach a place a defend order with a formation I wanted per unit. Then reattach to the HQ with a defend in situ order. That way I know what formation they units in. Well I hope that works and they stay in the previous formation I gave them.

Seems to me that maybe be because they are entrenched and defending maybe they are letting the Brits come with an ambush kill zone? Though I see the ambush box isn't ticked.

I appear mainly to loose equipment (without personell losses) by the Brits 5" mortar, which I think uses same sound FX as RPGs. This happened in a previous test, where engagements where shown properly...I think. The first volley removes almost always 5 rifles, 2 SMG and a Faust from equipment, without personnel losses.

I already did tests with letting the Btl HQ do all deployments for subordinates, but this tends to get the defenders eject from their entrenchments. [:-] Above mentioned issues (non engaging or point blanc engaging) stay the same.

Yep, I also tried the awkward detach single companies with individual orders and reattach with Btl. order "in situ". Didn´t make a difference unfortunately and if enemies are near, they could be surprised. There´s alse the unnessesary cohesion loss for changing formation or footprint.

Yep...no "ambush" or "attack" ticked. Tried to boost engagemnent willingnes with high aggro orders or even boosting aggro and other tags in the scenario editor. I´ve not yet completed all tests, but I liked starting with average units under ideal conditions (clear weather, daylight, open terrain, defender entrenched, no support units involved...). So far, I can´t explain what I see....[&:]

...although Arjuna indicates that "averaging" of all units weapons is involved.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Thanks for the screen dumps. How about you give me a saved game and I'll endeavour to step through it over the Xma break, which I am supposed to start today. [:)]

Off course can do [:)]

Could you please PM me your email @? The board does not seem to allow attachements. [&:]

The test scenario is based on the West-Brabant map, hope you have it available. Estab is original. Game is latest Battles from the Bulge v4.2.248 Update.

Can send you original scenario file and save game, which the screenies are based on above (game minute D1, 10:27).

[Arjuna]

Send to dave[at]panthergames[dot]com. Please zip them first before sending.

[Chief Rudiger]

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

I can´t tell when germans use rifle fire, as both deduct same ammo (7.92mm) and I can´t yet distinguish sound FX for this case. Is rifles and MGs used simultaneously?

Clone the 7.92mm ammo and rename it "7.92mm MG Ammo" and assign it to the MG.

When i was playing about with a WW1 style scenario i split .303 SMLE ammo from .303 Vickers ammo to stop entrenched infantry being instantly overrun as the MGs were eating up ALL the units ammo blazing away at infantry at long range leaving the riflemen useless when they were finally required! I also made changes to the size of the resupply shipments so lots of MG ammo arrives in big boxes.

[Lieste]

Bear in mind that that is the earliest that LOS is unimpeded. This might factor into fire probabilities for a small/relatively stealthy infantry unit.
Maybe the infantry is also rated 'mounted' at longer range, only becoming vulnerable to Apers fire once within their own effective range when they dismount to fire?

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

I can´t tell when germans use rifle fire, as both deduct same ammo (7.92mm) and I can´t yet distinguish sound FX for this case. Is rifles and MGs used simultaneously?

Clone the 7.92mm ammo and rename it "7.92mm MG Ammo" and assign it to the MG.

When i was playing about with a WW1 style scenario i split .303 SMLE ammo from .303 Vickers ammo to stop entrenched infantry being instantly overrun as the MGs were eating up ALL the units ammo blazing away at infantry at long range leaving the riflemen useless when they were finally required! I also made changes to the size of the resupply shipments so lots of MG ammo arrives in big boxes.

Thas very interesting.

How did the WW1 scenario playout in the end? Did it work well.

[Chief Rudiger]

Have a look at this thread:

tm.asp?m=2495592&mpage=1&key=Chief%2CRudiger&#2495592

The scenario was very basic!

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

Have a look at this thread:

tm.asp?m=2495592&mpage=1&key=Chief%2CRudiger&#65533;

The scenario was very basic!

Interesting! There´s a number of similarieties to my own tests, with regard to machine gun firepower and employment. [X(]

I´ll do some further tests with units with all but HMGs removed, so that the possible "averaging" of all arms does not apply when it comes to accuracy checks.

Take the german fortress HMG company with 12 MG42 HMGs and you´ll find it perform ...inadequately. [:(]

It´s not just that engagement ranges fall far below for what would even be expected from the bipod MG42 (700-800m), it´s also the rate of fire for each engagement which for the tripod MG42 would be counted in "belts" and not bursts. Fire command would involve target designation, depth and width setting and then ammo count to be used. As said it´s measured in belts of 50 rounds (a 2 1/2 second burst) minimum. That applies to all target ranges.

Usually when the terrain allows the HMGs to be concentrated and tactically led in the heavy company, then typical employment would be the "Feuerüberfall", a surprise fire concentration with all weapons blazing at a single "target".

[wodin]

S looking through the posts if you give the HMG it's own quota of ammo it will firs at the range of an HMG otherwise you get an average range between the HMG and the rifle?

If so it seems like it maybe a good idea to give HMG's their specific ammo in a future patch. Otherwise isn't the game not using HMG's to their fullest effectiveness?

I may have got what your all saying wrong here though.

As for mounted Inf. Aren't they unmounted as soon as you give a defend order? Also shouldn't mounted Inf become unmounted as soon as an enemy unit comes into LOS at say 2000m?

[Chief Rudiger]

ORIGINAL: wodin

S looking through the posts if you give the HMG it's own quota of ammo it will firs at the range of an HMG otherwise you get an average range between the HMG and the rifle?

If so it seems like it maybe a good idea to give HMG's their specific ammo in a future patch. Otherwise isn't the game not using HMG's to their fullest effectiveness?

I may have got what your all saying wrong here though.

Well, no, my only intention was to "reserve" the riflemen some ammo to stop the unit being overrun if the MGs ran out. If i remeber correctly the MGs don't fire any faster if they have their own ammo - it think i queried the low ROF in that old thread, but it is working as designned, apparently. Regardless, I don't know if low ammo is a factor in deciding whether to shoot or not.