Question re THREATS

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger
I don't know if low ammo is a factor in deciding whether to shoot or not.

Yes it is.

[RockinHarry]

Here´s a different test run. Created a sMG Platoon type unit in the Estab with following attributes:

4 x sMG42
No other equipment.
Personnel = Amount of crew = 12 (4x3)
No "bayonet" strength.
Has it´s standard ammo share of 8000 x 7.92mm (2000 each gun).
sMG42 performance data is stock game ESTAB (yielding a 20 Aper value, a bit low I think)

Made it a fully trained unit (100%) with slight a bit of combat experience (20%). Other stats should reflect that it´s quite a battle worthy unit.

Note: This is not a "realistic" platoon force composition, as it does not reflect ammo bearers and the platoon HQ staff personnel, but since I´m interested mainly in the sMG42 performance and unit trigger happiness I used this simplified composition.

see screnshot series below

I had to stop the test run, until it is clear what makes the german unit abort all its firing attempts. So far I can conclude preliminary that it helps to make the sMG42 the only equipment in a unit, as well as making the unit fully trained and boosting some other units/leader stats.

Remains another question raised, how is a units Aper firepower determined? 20 (5 per sMG) for the mentioned sMG42 Plt seems a little low.

[RockinHarry]

aargh...forgot that the board does not support direct linking.[:o]

Here´s the stats composited from within the scenario editor:

[RockinHarry]

Initial situation, after attaching the sMG Plt to a nearby Grenadier Btl HQ, with orders set to FACE SW (toward the enemy) , In Situ, Aggro and Losses = Max
The sMG Plt lost about 25% Cohesion due to redeployment in place.

[RockinHarry]

First action at 10:20 AM. As the blue engagament indicator shows, the sMG platoon "attempts" shooting at a Brit infantry Cpy approaching at est. 700m, which it also considers a high threat. However, the sMG Plt. did not pull the shot off. There wasn´t animation played, sound FX heard, nor log entry added or ammo expended.

[RockinHarry]

I let the game proceed til 10:28 AM with the Brit unit kept moving and the german sMG Plt. "attempting" to engage at least 4-5 more times. The german unit wasn´t engaged by the Brits yet. The german unit info panel showed repeatedly switching between "Entrenched" and "firing". In the meantime a log entry had been added for the initial firing attempt at 10:20, but as "E&S" tab shows, the unit is still with its initial 8000 rounds. Oftentimes the unit log does not show succesful firing, as well as "under fire" events, or events aren´t shown synchronously.

[wodin]

Is some of this just a data delay in updating? As you said 8 mins later the log updated. Maybe it's the same with the ammo.Also I doubt everytime a unit fires a sound is made. Otherwise in a large scenario it would be a cacophony and I expect would slow the system down.

Dave will be able to answer this I'm sure.

Chief i also queried the MG42 rof on release. I upped it in the est to around 30 to 40 rpm. Trouble then is a quick depletion of ammo.


Just thought I wonder if we could have some kind of option so we can tell a unit to fire at the enemy as soon as they are in range even if not perceived a threat. I though max Aggro would have done this already. Or the max aggor setting should set the unit to do this. Then the problem would be fixed I think.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Is some of this just a data delay in updating? As you said 8 mins later the log updated. Maybe it's the same with the ammo.Also I doubt everytime a unit fires a sound is made. Otherwise in a large scenario it would be a cacophony and I expect would slow the system down.

Dave will be able to answer this I'm sure.

Chief i also queried the MG42 rof on release. I upped it in the est to around 30 to 40 rpm. Trouble then is a quick depletion of ammo.


Just thought I wonder if we could have some kind of option so we can tell a unit to fire at the enemy as soon as they are in range even if not perceived a threat. I though max Aggro would have done this already. Or the max aggor setting should set the unit to do this. Then the problem would be fixed I think.

I do not believe that it´s simply a delay in updating the log. When the aborted firing occurs, then as said, there´s also no ammo deducted and the enemy unit also does behave totally unaffected (keeps moving, or even starts firing). As you say, only Dave could shed some light on this.

Unlike the "averaged" range rings of a company unit with integrated HMGs, the effective fire range ring of the pure HMG platoon unit goes way farer out (1000-1200m) and oftentimes they even engage at that range, but as said, then the shot/burst does not pull off for unknwon reason. At least it seems so, unless Dave explains that the game does work differently from what I/we expect to see.

Theoretically 4 HMG42 would initiate a surprise fire concentration (Feuerüberfall) of minimum 4 x 50 round belts (200 projectiles) in 2 1/2 seconds on the company size UK unit. For greater effect, the platoon leader could also order 100 round belts (400 projectiles) in 5 seconds. This would not just have a considerable suppression effect on an advancing (in the open) enemy, it also would likely hit a few soldiers. The closer the range, the less dispersed would be the salvoe and the more effect put on the enemy. Once the enemy unit manages to come in range of the line infantry, the HMG´s would´ve done their purpose. The defending line infantry then can deal with enemy infantry, which til then should´ve lost some cohesion, morale and fighting strength. At this point the line infantry would have its full stock of ammo left for rifles and lMG.

So far, I think the "integrated" solution is not fully worked out as the HMGs are more used for a close defense, vs a largely unaffected attacker. It could be very effective though, but the attacker then is so close that he can put effective return fire on the defender as well.

If nobody else then me sees the above mentioned issues, then it also might be, that my installation went fubar. [X(] I´d installed all the necessary C++, DX and .NET framwork stuff though.

Re MG42 ROF and ammo expenditure. I just see this as problem, as long as the MG42 (and all other) expend all of an infantry units 7.92mm ammo. Normally german HMGs weren´t generally integrated in the forward line, rather somewhat back, depending on terrain and fields of fire. HMGs could be forward in forests, urban, night or in an attack, then working with the forward troops. Tactically they kept some independence and also had to draw ammo resupply via the heavy companies lines.

So tactically the HMG´s were mostly used for the long to medium range job. lMGs would drop in at medium range and remaining wepaons at close range. If the HMGs further back have ammo left, they´d help with the close defense off course. This is just a small piece of the whole picture and there´s also the topic "prepared defense", where all available weapons of a defender would concentrate on an attacker at a preset pattern (target reference points or areas). I think, currently the defender in the game is at some disadvantage. If you take away all the artillery from the game, which I think "covers" some of the infantry battle problems, then many basic actions look rather uncoordinated and conducted in a more piecemeal fashion.

Not to be misunderstood, I really like the game and it´s many possibilities. [:)] It´s my way exploring a new game, creating small, controllable battles to get a grasp of how individual aspects of the engine (infantry, armor, artillery, combined arms...) work out. It´s maybe not the way the game is intended to be (combined arms, fluid battles of movement)? [&:]

I´ve various projects in the bag, incl. Operation Veritable, Black Cock and the hurtgen forest battle. [8D]

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Send to dave[at]panthergames[dot]com. Please zip them first before sending.

Sent you the files yesterday. [:)]

[wodin]

I agree about ROF's of the HMG's in game. I brought it up aswell as others on release. It's very low indeed. I'd rather that the ammo is seperated from rifle ammo (so they dont burn up all the riflemens ammo) and the HMG's to get realistic amounts and the RoF be increased massively.

With an East front game on the way I feel it really needs looking into. The MG34 and 42 where feared weapons that could halt an advance in it's tracks if the enemy where out in the open. not sure this happens in game though.

[Arjuna]

Harry,

I got your files but I'm on my Xmas break right now till the the second week in January. I may not get to it till then. But if I'm really bored, you never know, I might run through it earlier. [:)]

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Harry,

I got your files but I'm on my Xmas break right now till the the second week in January. I may not get to it till then. But if I'm really bored, you never know, I might run through it earlier. [:)]

No good idea to get bothered by a newcomer just before Xmas indeed! [:D] Seriously...enjoy your Xmas break and thanks for the nice Xmas present, which BftB is to me! [:)][&o]

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I agree about ROF's of the HMG's in game. I brought it up aswell as others on release. It's very low indeed. I'd rather that the ammo is seperated from rifle ammo (so they dont burn up all the riflemens ammo) and the HMG's to get realistic amounts and the RoF be increased massively.

With an East front game on the way I feel it really needs looking into. The MG34 and 42 where feared weapons that could halt an advance in it's tracks if the enemy where out in the open. not sure this happens in game though.

Adding the 7.92mm MG to the ESTAB and binding to MGs was a quick affair and I already did some testing with interesting results. Now that I could observe ammo expenditure in detail, I found the rifles expend their ammo way before the machine guns, particularly in close encounters at 300m to close combat range. Looks like machine guns are more reluctant to fire at close ranges, but otherwise, unless the "non firing" oddity is not cleared, it could also be the aborted attempts of machine guns to fire lead to their ammo preservance.[X(]

I added a german squad size unit to the ESATB with standard loadout. 8 rifles, 1 MP40, 1 lmG. Personnel 10, Inf value 10. The net result is 12 AntiPrsnl. The pure HMG platoon (with 4 x MG42 sMG) yields 20 AntiPersnl. So 2 infantry squads are slightly more powerful than the HMG platoon. Maybe that explains the reluctance of HMGs to fire? That the game engine assumes firepower, combined with accuracy is not enough to put "effective" fire on an enemy? The non firing oddity could also be explained, that the info bar just shows an fire accuracy check, which failed. Maybe Dave can tell if the blue marker and info tab updates are used for in circumstances. [&:]

[wodin]

Rockin harry I admire your testing. Really does throw certain aspects into the spotlight and highlights a few possible issues.

I could imagine you being an asset to Panthers testing team.

Though Dave has said before the game isn't designed to play out small squad level combat (as I've asked about that scale before) so this maybe one of the reasons why. The game maybe a little to abstract to deal with things at that level, hence your outcomes. Yet again I still feel HMG's are underpowered in the game and don't have the hitting or suppression power they should have. I've said before the MG42 was called the "bone Saw" yet the ROF in game certainly doesn't hold to that name.

Quick edit...I take back all my compliments as I've just noticed Arsenal in your posts...me being a Spurs fan...I'm only joking...keep up the testing your doing a great job.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Rockin harry I admire your testing. Really does throw certain aspects into the spotlight and highlights a few possible issues.

I could imagine you being an asset to Panthers testing team.

Though Dave has said before the game isn't designed to play out small squad level combat (as I've asked about that scale before) so this maybe one of the reasons why. The game maybe a little to abstract to deal with things at that level, hence your outcomes. Yet again I still feel HMG's are underpowered in the game and don't have the hitting or suppression power they should have. I've said before the MG42 was called the "bone Saw" yet the ROF in game certainly doesn't hold to that name.

Quick edit...I take back all my compliments as I've just noticed Arsenal in your posts...me being a Spurs fan...I'm only joking...keep up the testing your doing a great job.

I´d created the squad size unit just to compare APers with the HMG platoon. I don´t intend using squad size units in the game. I now doubled the sMG42 to have a ROF of 50 "normal" (which would be the standard tactical ammo unit for a single engagement), 20 "slow" for rather harrassing fires, and 100 "rapid" for more intense engagements. This raised Apers to 34 for the 4 x sMG42 platoon. Ingame the unit tab shows 40 "slow", 100 "normal" and 200 "rapid", which might reflect some of the whole unit stats, like experience, training and maybe aggro setting? [&:]

Edit: changed the lMG42 version as well. Now has 10/25/50. 25 would be 3 short bursts (of 7-8 rounds a burst) in a minute for a tactical engagement. Can´t tell how it currently translates to individual Apers. Ingame, the ROF as well shows doubled (20/50/100).

Hehe [:D], Steel Panthers Arsenal was formerly Wild Bill Wilders scenario design group and does not exist anymore. Long time gone...

[wodin]

Well call me stupid..thought it was some kind of fantasy football team you'd named after Arsenal.

You upped the rates similar to what I did not long after release.

Again I was worried about ammo shortage though once I did it.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Well call me stupid..thought it was some kind of fantasy football team you'd named after Arsenal.

You upped the rates similar to what I did not long after release.

Again I was worried about ammo shortage though once I did it.

Hehe...believe it or not, beeing german I´m not into football at all! [X(] ...well sometimes european or world championships...[:D]

Re ammo: As said, the game shows my changed ROF doubled, so there´s other factors I´m not fully aware of involved. At least I see now occasionally using HMG units blazing at max effective range and the AI also shows some more respect (guess the AI is propagated effective range of enemy units weapons, adapting his tactics accordingly).

With 7.92mm ammo seperated for rifles and MGs, I now see a tendency for rifles got their ammo used up more quickly than MGs, particularly at short (below 300m) ranges.

High ammo usage can be countered with stockpiling ammo for defending units in entrenched positions. Once can safely assume that defenders with enough time to prepare defenses, would also keep additional stocks of ammo within or near their positions. So boosting the initial ammo level of units in the scenario editor to values above 100% would be one useful method.

Yet I can´t continue testing for the odd "non firing" problems mentioned above. Also occurs for enemy AI units frequently. Units at least "attempt" to fire every one or two minutes and it looks that at medium to long ranges, just 10-20% of firing attempts are successfull. Near and point blanc range fire attempts are roughly 50-60% successfull, but at that ranges off course other factors start to kick in (enemy return fire, suppression, cohesion and morale losses..).

[wodin]

RockinHarry did you have any relatives in the War...also I watched a programme about how even today the War is something to be deeply ashamed of even by those born after the events. I imagine the torment those German soldiers felt who where in the War or even worse the ones who where in Russian captivity until the early mid fifties to have been doubly awful as you couldn't even talk about it. Many must have suffered from post traumatic disorder in silence to ashamed to even admit they fought. Very very sad.

BTW, Again thanks for testing and telling us the results. I like the idea of increasing ammo\seperating it and upping the ROF of the HMG's. Sounds good. I think having the HMG ammo seperate from the rifle ammo very important as lets face it I'm sure the HMG's where requested their own stock.

[Phoenix100]

I agree, the testing is all very interesting. I await Dave's response, because whether it's designed for higher level simulation or not, it's not much good if the units can just walk through like that, without appearing as a threat.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

RockinHarry did you have any relatives in the War...also I watched a programme about how even today the War is something to be deeply ashamed of even by those born after the events. I imagine the torment those German soldiers felt who where in the War or even worse the ones who where in Russian captivity until the early mid fifties to have been doubly awful as you couldn't even talk about it. Many must have suffered from post traumatic disorder in silence to ashamed to even admit they fought. Very very sad.

BTW, Again thanks for testing and telling us the results. I like the idea of increasing ammo\seperating it and upping the ROF of the HMG's. Sounds good. I think having the HMG ammo seperate from the rifle ammo very important as lets face it I'm sure the HMG's where requested their own stock.

Yep...my grandpa was infantryman in the 96.ID before Leningrad..in 1944 I think. He was drafted as "Landesschutze" (overaged reservist), then heavily wounded by a russian mortar shell hitting a tree trunk next to him (heavy head and chest wounds), then evacuated, probably recuperating in his hometown Breslau (Wroclaw, Poland nowaday). He somehow managed to evacuate my family before the russians (my mother was a child at that time) to the west, where they were safe til the war ended. My mom also told they got evacuated in a "tank", although I think it must rather have been a halftrack. She can´t remember precisely. She must´ve been 7 or 8 at that time.

My grandpa also received the iron cross second grade for bravery in some kind of a rearguard action.

He wasn´t able to tell much more, since if he came to his wartime experiences (..mostly asked for by me), my grandma interrupted..not to tell of the darn war! Understandable. I remember him as a very good natured, kind and rather silent man. He died of cancer in the late 80ies. [:(]