German Moral gains broken or is this BS by "design"?

[Peltonx]

Here is unit before 1st combat.

[Peltonx]

1 battle.

[Peltonx]

2nd battle.

[Peltonx]

3rd battle

[Peltonx]

4th battle

[Peltonx]

As can be seen this units gained zero moral for winning 4 battles all solo.

I saw this happening during the last clear turn and was taken aback by it.

knowing 2 by 3 I knew I needed a clear chain of events and planed ahead for it.

Now I have been told by JB and others in another thread that the reason German moral does not go up as Russian moral increases by simply sitting 10 hexes from front was to forse the Germans to attack.

The way it is working now is during 1942 Germans only gain moral up to 70 after that you can win battle after battle an there is zero moral gain. I have seen this from snow turn until now so it is atleast 60 battles.

Is this crap by design?

Russian units can gain moral over nation levels, but German units can't after 1941?

During 1941 all german infantry units can gain moral over 85 and some as high as 90+

Why has the German moral gain for higher then 70 after 1941 been turned off?

This is just total BS if this is not broken.


I am hoping this is a broken part of the game and not another handly cap that has been forsed on the German side which is 100% totally unhistorical and 100% against what I have been told in the past.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

Merry Christmas.

Pelton

[JAMiAM]

Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed. The German's National Morale in 1942 is 70, so units that are already over the NM should have a reduced chance of gaining morale through battles. As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed. The German's National Morale in 1942 is 70, so units that are already over the NM should have a reduced chance of gaining morale through battles. As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase.

So by design in 1941 units can gain moral easly over national moral CAP. I have many units far above 75 during 41.

So german nation moral is 50. As we know and has been stated German units do not gain moral by sitting higher then 50.

AND there is a national moral CAP starting in 1942.

Great
1.Russian units gain moral by sitting up to national moral levels
German units do not gain moral by sitting above 50
2. from 1942 until end of war there is a national moral CAP on the German side.

Again German players are put in a box, we are 100% forsed to play by historical limits no matter how amazing we are doing and how horrible the russain player is doing.

No gain for Germans over 50 sitting and Russians gain moral sitting.

No gain for Germans over national cap and russians can gain moral over nation cap

So again tell me what is the point of the Germans attacking in 42?

Same old same old Germans are forsed into a box, while the Russians can do anything they want non-historical.

Why is German moral forsed to go down or is capped when it is winning battle after battle? German moral would by going up if anything in 1942.

Very very sad another poorly thought out "design".

No matter how good the german player does above historical you will be punished for it.

No matter how poorly the russian player does he will be rewarded for poor game play.

Standard Russian babysitting by 2 by 3.

Pelton

[krupp_88mm]

rsed into a box, while the Russians can do anything they want non-historical.

Why is German moral forsed to go down or is capped when it is winning battle after battle? German moral would by going up if anything in 1942.

Very very sad another poorly thought out "design".

i agree pelton hardcaps are just plain silly, it would be much better to use a simple algorithm of some sort, perhaps with a combination of moral / casualties / nm / replacements / weather / rest / leader / organization ect

also it seems pretty sill y that a units moral is so 'fixed' IRL units don't have a 'fixed' moral, they could have a mean average, or 'base' morale that in turn could be given positive or negative temporary modifiers based on the events, maybe higher morale if they have large artillery / armor support, also possibly add a morale modifier for winning loosing consecutive battles that could be broken by loosing a battle.

i know historically one thing that probably affected morale more than anything else was having a stugg on the front lines with the men. The german soldiers would get back all their courage and zeal once they knew they had a stugg with them to take out the russian armor they feared. Also seeing your enemy slammed with artillery will give you a nice boost to moral (albiet these are all temporary morale boosts) it would be nice to see such a structure implemented, form a math point of view it would be simple to make and keep it balanced, but form a programing testing point of view its probably to radical to implement, maybe i will see if i can make a modification to the games code to implement a solution.

[Flaviusx]

It's not a "hard" cap, it is a soft one. And the rule works exactly the same for both sides, except that the cap is much lower for the Sovs than the Germans. (Except at the very end of the war when NM + special unit bonuses will catch up to the Germans and in some cases even exceed them.)

The infantry division in this example could have gotten some morale gains if it were lucky (and that's the only way it could get them as it was over cap.) It wasn't. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

So by design in 1941 units can gain moral easly over national moral CAP. I have many units far above 75 during 41.

The German NM is 75 in 1941. Also, you have a lot of units that *start* higher than 75 in 1941. Also, you have a large number of units (Elites, Arm, Mot, Cav) that have augmented caps. See the Readme notes a few patches ago for details on what those increased cap are.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

So german nation moral is 50.

Wrong, and despite how many times you falsely make the claim, it does not become truth.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

As we know and has been stated German units do not gain moral by sitting higher then 50.

As far as I know, you are the only one stating it. It is another false claim. The morale will climb about 50, just by sitting, but it is dependent upon making the necessary morale rolls, and other preconditions.

ORIGINAL: Pelton
AND there is a national moral CAP starting in 1942.

There is a NM cap every year, for both sides. What's your point here?

ORIGINAL: Pelton

So again tell me what is the point of the Germans attacking in 42?

The rest of the stuff is hyperbole, and not worth the effort of reposting yet another debunking, but a couple of points of having the Axis attack in 1942, regardless of your strategic goals, is to take advantage of the combat driven morale gains for the Axis, and to drive down the morale of the Soviets. Since the Soviets NM is only 40 in 1942, it makes sense to drive down the morale of their units that had gained morale in the Winter Counteroffensive, as well as to restore that of your own, who likely lost it. As the Axis, I consider the snow period of 1942 an invaluable "training up" period, and take advantage of it ruthlessly.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

rsed into a box, while the Russians can do anything they want non-historical.

Why is German moral forsed to go down or is capped when it is winning battle after battle? German moral would by going up if anything in 1942.

Very very sad another poorly thought out "design".

i agree pelton hardcaps are just plain silly, it would be much better to use a simple algorithm of some sort, perhaps with a combination of moral / casualties / nm / replacements / weather / rest / leader / organization ect

also it seems pretty sill y that a units moral is so 'fixed' IRL units don't have a 'fixed' moral, they could have a mean average, or 'base' morale that in turn could be given positive or negative temporary modifiers based on the events, maybe higher morale if they have large artillery / armor support, also possibly add a morale modifier for winning loosing consecutive battles that could be broken by loosing a battle.

i know historically one thing that probably affected morale more than anything else was having a stugg on the front lines with the men. The german soldiers would get back all their courage and zeal once they knew they had a stugg with them to take out the russian armor they feared. Also seeing your enemy slammed with artillery will give you a nice boost to moral (albiet these are all temporary morale boosts) it would be nice to see such a structure implemented, form a math point of view it would be simple to make and keep it balanced, but form a programing testing point of view its probably to radical to implement, maybe i will see if i can make a modification to the games code to implement a solution.

This is one of the major reasons that the game is an epic disaster from late 43 to the end.

tm.asp?m=2792361 Tuarhunnas
tm.asp?m=2696554

As can be seen if you follow the AAR"s both players did far better then historical, yet are about to or have had their armys broken and will lose their games.

IF IF the moral of units went up when they won battles in 1942 as they should have then they could have won.

Basicly the moral CAP on the German player is a built in Russian I win button.

The German player is punished for better then historical results and the Russian player is rewarded for poor game play.

Talk about a poor design, this is as bad as the flying pig 1v1=2v1 rule set.

Another non historical fantasy based rule set to help babysit the russian side.

the russian side can do about anything non historical, but the germans are forsed to be 100% historical.

What happened to the "what ifs" 2 by 3 boasts about when seeling this game?

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's not a "hard" cap, it is a soft one. And the rule works exactly the same for both sides, except that the cap is much lower for the Sovs than the Germans. (Except at the very end of the war when NM + special unit bonuses will catch up to the Germans and in some cases even exceed them.)

The infantry division in this example could have gotten some morale gains if it were lucky (and that's the only way it could get them as it was over cap.) It wasn't. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed. The German's National Morale in 1942 is 70, so units that are already over the NM should have a reduced chance of gaining morale through battles. As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase.

Ok lets just be clear guys. in 1941 there is no CAP.

During 1941 German units gain moral based on combat results, because national moral is 75 yet I have 2 plus pages of infantry units with higher then 75 moral. There is NO CAP based on data an not what you guys are saying.

During 1942 there is a HARD CAP, again based 100% on data and not what you 2 are saying.

By design the game has a built in I win button for the russian side.

During 1941 moral is 100% based on combat results and from 1942 to 1945 its based 100% on a hard cap or another flying pig rule set.

Again why is the German player punished for good game play and the Russian player rewarded for poor game play?

Defending another flying pig russian I win button is just making 2 by 3 look silly.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed. The German's National Morale in 1942 is 70, so units that are already over the NM should have a reduced chance of gaining morale through battles. As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase.

So Jamiam there is no hard cap in 41, but there is in 42.

It is a hard cap from 1942 to 45.

Where does 2 by 3 come up with this BS?

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's not a "hard" cap, it is a soft one. And the rule works exactly the same for both sides, except that the cap is much lower for the Sovs than the Germans. (Except at the very end of the war when NM + special unit bonuses will catch up to the Germans and in some cases even exceed them.)

The infantry division in this example could have gotten some morale gains if it were lucky (and that's the only way it could get them as it was over cap.) It wasn't. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

It does not work the same way for both sides. I have posted the issue before.

German Moral does not increase when more then 10 hexes behind the lines and Russian moral does.

German as I have proven here German moral has NO HARD CAP in 1941, but it does in 1942 to 45.

This is clearly a dream world based ruleset based on nothing.

Tarhunnas was almost to the VP total and his moral was stuck at 70?

Thats total BS and you know it. Thats why his game is trashed, because of the HARD CAP(russian I win button). If his moral went up with each win as it should he would have won. But instead because of design he will lose. Again the german player is punished fo uber game play and the russian is rewarded for bad game play.

Flaviusx you and Jamian defending this BS is making you both look really close minded.

You both know this is a total BS rule, but whatever keep defending it.

It is a russian I win botton the same as was 1v1=2v1.

Its total BS and you both know it is.

Pelton

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed. The German's National Morale in 1942 is 70, so units that are already over the NM should have a reduced chance of gaining morale through battles. As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase.

So Jamiam there is no hard cap in 41, but there is in 42.

It is a hard cap from 1942 to 45.

Please reread the bolded section of my quote. There is no "hard cap" since it can be exceeeded. It just gets progressively more difficult to do so, the further you get from the (augmented) NM for the particular unit. The Germans start the 41 CG with a large number of infantry divisions that are already exceeding their NM. They are generally getting some 10:1 to 20:1 win ratios during the first few months of that period. It's not surprising that the unit morales remain elevated until the First Winter, when things go to hell for them.

From 1942 onward, they are fighting against a steadily declining NM, and so must make every effort to minimize their slow grind, as well as to inflict morale losses against the Soviets. In this way, the morale differential can be maintained as long as possible. As the war progresses, things do get worse, and the concept of rebuilding your units morale, and shaving down that of the enemy remains its importance throughout.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Actually, your screenshots show that the morale aspect of the game is working as designed. The German's National Morale in 1942 is 70, so units that are already over the NM should have a reduced chance of gaining morale through battles. As the unit is an infantry division, it gets no boosts beyond the NM level, and unless it's getting lucky morale rolls from its chain of command, you shouldn't see much, if any, of a morale increase.

So Jamiam there is no hard cap in 41, but there is in 42.

It is a hard cap from 1942 to 45.

Please reread the bolded section of my quote. There is no "hard cap" since it can be exceeeded. It just gets progressively more difficult to do so, the further you get from the (augmented) NM for the particular unit. The Germans start the 41 CG with a large number of infantry divisions that are already exceeding their NM. They are generally getting some 10:1 to 20:1 win ratios during the first few months of that period. It's not surprising that the unit morales remain elevated until the First Winter, when things go to hell for them.

From 1942 onward, they are fighting against a steadily declining NM, and so must make every effort to minimize their slow grind, as well as to inflict morale losses against the Soviets. In this way, the morale differential can be maintained as long as possible. As the war progresses, things do get worse, and the concept of rebuilding your units morale, and shaving down that of the enemy remains its importance throughout.

1st explain that to Tuarhunnas

tm.asp?m=2792361

2nd thats not true as can be seen from the 50+ units that are far above 75 moral in 1941. I could not have possibly gotten lucky that many times, heheh come on no one beleives that.

3rd I have had atleast 50+ units with 70 plus moral in 42 gain nothing zero zero zero in moral in 1942.

It is 100% a hard cap.

No as in zero moral is gained above 70 from 1942 to 45 none.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

everyone can clearly see its a russian I win button the very same as the 1v1=2v1 rule was.

Again Russians are rewarded for poor game play and Germans are punished for uber game play.

This is an on going thing with this game.

By the way I was not the one who saw this, 2 other players saw it before me.

But they did not want to have to put up with the flak that poeple get every time 2 by 3 is called out on this crap.

I have no problem with it, a poorly designed rule set is just that.

No one is fooling anyone.

Pelton

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

rsed into a box, while the Russians can do anything they want non-historical.

Why is German moral forsed to go down or is capped when it is winning battle after battle? German moral would by going up if anything in 1942.

Very very sad another poorly thought out "design".

i agree pelton hardcaps are just plain silly, it would be much better to use a simple algorithm of some sort, perhaps with a combination of moral / casualties / nm / replacements / weather / rest / leader / organization ect

also it seems pretty sill y that a units moral is so 'fixed' IRL units don't have a 'fixed' moral, they could have a mean average, or 'base' morale that in turn could be given positive or negative temporary modifiers based on the events, maybe higher morale if they have large artillery / armor support, also possibly add a morale modifier for winning loosing consecutive battles that could be broken by loosing a battle.

i know historically one thing that probably affected morale more than anything else was having a stugg on the front lines with the men. The german soldiers would get back all their courage and zeal once they knew they had a stugg with them to take out the russian armor they feared. Also seeing your enemy slammed with artillery will give you a nice boost to moral (albiet these are all temporary morale boosts) it would be nice to see such a structure implemented, form a math point of view it would be simple to make and keep it balanced, but form a programing testing point of view its probably to radical to implement, maybe i will see if i can make a modification to the games code to implement a solution.

You got a pony with a flak jacket? HMM also need a helmet

heheheh