Where JTCS went wrong

[osiris_slith]

HI Jason

Your argument makes sense and I agree with you except they collaborated with TOAD software to update OAW and that update was free to the customer

I am not so sure what and how much they paid to do it..Would be interesting to know what motivated them to do it in the first place..

so maybe theres a chance they will settle for pennies or a few dollars most likely to since it would essentialy be a brand new game

wouldnt hurt to ask them

rene

[marcbarker]

Jason, I tell you what I will do, Here is my resume' you decide how much that will be worth
25+ years in the engineering field
Aerospcae
Electrical
Software
CAD
CATIA, Microstation, Capital Harness, AutoCAD, E-CAD, Cadam, Right Hemisphere, Illustrator (NON CAD) Visiso, SGML, HTML, and Postscript Header writing
2 copyrights on Data Translation Software between CAD Platforms
Software Develeopement for CAD Platforms, Windows based, Unix, and Linux

I would donate 1500+ manhours to this project if means to have a better platform. you would be looking at 2 man years on the updated graphics. You have to determine the definition of acceptable graphic update. Amount of detail etc.


Marc

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
You know something, whether osiris is right, wrong or just a plain pain in the ass is no reason for developers, contributors, volunteers or whoever to treat him like a piece of dirt. I've read this whole discussion and all I've seen are people like Warhorse, Hawk, barker, Jason and Mr. RoadRunner belittle this guy for his opinions. If he's that much of a pain in the ass why are you people even responding to him? Why not just ignore him? That's the biggest problem with Matrix' version of JTCS. There are a select few who think their opinions matter more than others.

Mr. Tevans6220,

Rene has been around the game longer than it has been in the hands of Matrix. He knows more about what goes on with the game, the modding, upgrades, and Matrix in general.
He waits to sandbag Jason?
Every upgrade or change he stated has already been beaten to death over the last few years. There are things that can be done and things that cannot. He knows that.
Early on he was against Extreme Assault. Later he became for it. Now he belittles Jason by saying that Jason and Matrix are timid about making it not optional? From what I know, during my time playing the game, many players would drop the game if EA weren't optional. It would make a small group that much smaller?

Matrix wishes to garner a small profit on a niche product. CS is one of many that provide a revenue stream to Matrix.
That does not mean that enthusiasts of CS are going to get all their fixes as Matrix showers money upon CS. It means that a group of volunteers work continually on upgrading a very old program. What they can do is limited by time and money.
Rene knows that. He knew it four years ago. He knows it now.

When one or two (or three or four) people mention reality and it seems coarse, it really is not.

Sorry if you are offended by any comments made in this direction. But, facts are facts and will not be changed by hopes and wishes.

[:)]

RR

[marcbarker]

ed , morning by the way need my turn ...lol

[Hawk Kriegsman]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

(BTW, for anyone who says I spam the forums ... this is my first post).

Spammer! [:-]

Well someone had to accuse you! [:'(]

Thanx!

Hawk

[marcbarker]

As I raise my hand slowly....as the glaring eyes turns towards me...."Spammers?"

Hi I am Marc, I SPAM

[marcbarker]

lol

[marcbarker]

Just curious how did I be little him....not at all...i was trying to donate my time to help the cause

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: barker

As I raise my hand slowly....as the glaring eyes turns towards me...."Spammers?"

Hi I am Marc, I SPAM

Well at least you don't come from a useless country

[marcbarker]

Yes I do South Carolina

[marcbarker]

oh geesh this is the anti christ thread

[tevans6220]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

Mr. Tevans6220,

Rene has been around the game longer than it has been in the hands of Matrix. He knows more about what goes on with the game, the modding, upgrades, and Matrix in general.
He waits to sandbag Jason?
Every upgrade or change he stated has already been beaten to death over the last few years. There are things that can be done and things that cannot. He knows that.
Early on he was against Extreme Assault. Later he became for it. Now he belittles Jason by saying that Jason and Matrix are timid about making it not optional? From what I know, during my time playing the game, many players would drop the game if EA weren't optional. It would make a small group that much smaller?

Matrix wishes to garner a small profit on a niche product. CS is one of many that provide a revenue stream to Matrix.
That does not mean that enthusiasts of CS are going to get all their fixes as Matrix showers money upon CS. It means that a group of volunteers work continually on upgrading a very old program. What they can do is limited by time and money.
Rene knows that. He knew it four years ago. He knows it now.

When one or two (or three or four) people mention reality and it seems coarse, it really is not.

Sorry if you are offended by any comments made in this direction. But, facts are facts and will not be changed by hopes and wishes.

[:)]

RR

Even if I take it that everything you say is true my point still stands. It's not up to you, me or anybody else to tell another customer to shut up or go away. Just because some of you volunteer shouldn't mean that you have some type of extra special privileges to treat people bad just because you disagree with them. That's what the ignore button is for. Last but not least a developer/moderator shouldn't really be mixed up in something like this. Instead they should be moderating so that other customers or potential customers don't get a bad impression. In other words you and the others listed in my first post aren't doing Matrix any favors. If I didn't already own JTCS I know I wouldn't buy it because of this. I certainly won't be buying any modern version because if it's to the point where only a select few are able to express their likes, dislikes or opinions without catching hell there's no point. It certainly is a niche market and a small clique within a niche market just means the market is going to be much smaller.

[tevans6220]

ORIGINAL: barker

Just curious how did I be little him....not at all...i was trying to donate my time to help the cause

Oh come on. Do I really have to explain it to you? He listed his complaints and the rest of you either attacked him or piled on including the moderator. Doesn't matter how much you contribute in the way of volunteering or modding or anything else. His opinions are just as valid. To be told to shut up and go away is just plain ignorant. If the guy is such a pain in the ass then just put him on ignore. You may not have been the person telling him to go away but you agreed with it. You guys come off looking like a bunch of arrogant a**holes. It that's okay with you then fine but wargaming is a niche market. Anything that divides that market into special cliques, groups or whatever and doesn't include everybody is detrimental to the hobby.

Like I said osiris had some very valid points. Graphics do need an overhaul. Not so much the 3D but definitely the 2D and it certainly isn't going to take $75,000 to do it unless somebody is just trying to pocket money. Many games get graphics overhauls by volunteers. Why not this one? And his point about the AI is 100% true. The AI has been bad in this game going all the way back to the Talonsoft days. In all the years that this title has been under the Matrix flag little to no work has been done on the AI. Why? Not everybody wants or has the time to play PBEM. Instead of working on a Modern version with possible expansions, graphics and AI should have taken precedence. Why would I buy a Modern version with the same poor graphics and the same poor AI? I already have Divided Ground if I want that. I think people are looking for something better and from what I've read of osiris comments that's what he wants. If people want to disagree with him then disagree. But telling him to shut up and go away is just plain ignorant. It's not right.

[marcbarker]

FYI...I said I would donate my time and software...the software I do use is well over 100k with the machine...regardless I did not say anything wrong nor did I belttle him. Yes he does have valid points. In some aspects I agree. But again Matrix and really any company weighs the option money spent vs money coming in hence income. IF the R & D is spent updating on their ticket and thus selling a few 1000 copies they lost money. If acompany is to succeed they need to turn a profit usually about 32% to cover costs. Have you actually priced let us say contract illustrators, you pay a contract house 60 hr. they give their contractor 35 an hour sometimes more sometimes less, factor in the overhead costs, office space, compute electricity etc. it would go over the 75k that you said. 2080 hours is 1 manyear. Now factor in the cost of the software to generate the updated graphics...hmmm maybe maya, or catia, maybe even right hemisphere to generate some of the animations.

Depends on the specifics of details. Now that being said, now lets dive into the programmer aspect. OK we have the beta brigade what 7 people 5 years to decode compile and executue the game engine. Now we take the graphics side and marry the software engine and hope that it will compile correct. Now let us look at the publishing side of the manuals and tech docs that go with the software. Now we have the software completed. Now comes the deliverable how, on what platform, cost of media, storage space. Book keeping to keep up orders. I do not envy Matrix's decision on what to upgrade or how it upgrades. Criticism is very welcome in the deloping world because it makes the product better and a more viable revenue source.

To repackage what you wish from a business standpoint is not that good of an outlook especially if it were not for the effort of some individuals. I too had run ins with some of fellas on here and expressed my view, they stated theirs but we moved on.

I decided what can I do to help develope the game that I love and play. So I do various things and am content with that.

Marc

[marcbarker]

At no time did I state to shut up nor to go away.....prior to blasting me please read what I have posted

[osiris_slith]

Hi RR

Under normal circumstances your argument would be vaild but everything changed with the update to OAW and heres why

1: OAW was relased in 1998
2: East Front was released a year later-

Chances are these 2 games are more less running on the same technology so now consider this-

(This is directly from the MATRIX website in 2011)

New rules, improved graphics, sharper AI and plenty more coming in this massive update

Matrix Game and the TOAD Team are thrilled to announce that a new mega-update for The Operational Art of War III is now available. The comprehensive 3.4.0.202 update comes with pages upon pages of improvements, new features, and fixes. Here is just a small overview of the many improvements found in the update:

•New turn order rules to equalize the sequence of events and phases for both players. The original turn structure is still available as well.
•A brand new and improved supply system that is much more detailed and realistic than the old system. The original supply system is still available as well.
•New rules to address gamey “ant unit” tactics such as a new system called the Assault Ratio which makes the Attacker Assault Strength value much more realistic.
•Over 50 new community-created scenarios.
• Almost a dozen significant changes to the combat model.
•40 user interface improvements and optimizations.
•Several graphical enhancements including alternate place name fonts and bitmaps that will scale with zoom level.
•Improved customization and editor functionality – now XML files can be used wherever DLL files are used and more graphical mods are now supported.
•Improved AI.
•More and improved language support.
•Better cheat prevention.
•Many bug fixes.
•Plenty more!

David Heath, Director of Operations at Matrix Games, said “This update includes so many significant and exciting improvements to The Operational Art of War III, it’s practically a new release! The TOAD team has put so much extra detail and shine into this classic wargame with this update that there’s never been a better time to jump on board and try your hand at the premiere simulation of operational warfare! ”

Norm Koger’s The Operational Art of Waris a legendary title among wargamers. A masterpiece of flexible design, it allows you to play and create any battle from the entire 20th Century of warfare and up to the modern day. Now, Matrix Games together with Norm Koger and a new design team bring you the definitive release of this unsurpassed operational wargame – The Operational Art of War III.

The Operational Art of War III sets a new benchmark in operational wargaming. Step up to the challenge - Master the Art of War!

Get the update here. The update is comprehensive and will bring all previous versions of Norm Koger’s The Operational Art of War III to version 3.4.0.202. Get more information on Norm Koger’s The Operational Art of War III from its official product page.

Also be sure to check out the fresh batch of screenshots now up on the product page to show off the new graphical and interface enhancements!


So as I suggested why not ask MATRIX if they would collaborate on updating JTCS-N0thing made sense in this update to OAW-customer got a free update and they collaborated with TOAD to do it!! And they spent a good deal of money on it by the looks of it!

If they can update the AI and graphics in game that is older then JTCS by a year then why not ask them to do it for this game..wouldnt it be cool if patch 1.05 looked more like the update for OAW even if it takes another year or so?

The moment this update came out on a older game everything changed,...everything that was considered impossible or too much has suddenly become a possibility the only thing we need is someone to convince MATRIX to do it and I cant think of a better person then Jason..If they let me talk to John Tiller Software on a possible collaboration with Panzer Battles then would it not be possible that MATRIX would consider partnering with TOAD again to improve this game on the inside!!...we have to try!!
rene

[marcbarker]

It would I have to agree but I honestly do not think it will happen. There may have been a push to shelve this title because of lack of consumers and certains individuals stated if you give us the power we can do it for you and it won't cost anything...just a random thought

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
Even if I take it that everything you say is true my point still stands.

Uh, are you implying that I am lying? Hmmm...
You seemed like a more reasonable guy who would defend himself without resorting to sophomoric slams at the beginning of an argument. One's that you could roll your eyes later and say, "that's not what I meant".
If what I said is true then your point falls like a house of cards.

ORIGINAL: tevans6220It's not up to you, me or anybody else to tell another customer to shut up or go away. Just because some of you volunteer shouldn't mean that you have some type of extra special privileges to treat people bad just because you disagree with them.

Rene seems to have nothing but vitriol to bring every time he posts lately. Can we expect, then, that all of us who have heard the same negative things for years will not want to hear it all again?
Jason and company are volunteers. What more can you expect from them? What Rene expects is not going to happen? How can it be, unless volunteers who dedicate time and money to develop the game beyond the presently possible, step up and donate valuable time?
I am an enthusiast of CS. What Matrix has done both met and exceeded my expectations for this old game. I did not like some of the changes and expressed them many times. I do not come on here every time I post and complain about the same things. Why should he have that "privilege"?

ORIGINAL: tevans6220That's what the ignore button is for. Last but not least a developer/moderator shouldn't really be mixed up in something like this. Instead they should be moderating so that other customers or potential customers don't get a bad impression.

I agree with some of this. If I moderated the forum many posts would not see the light of day. Then I'd be accused of being heavy handed and driving "potential customers" away. You can argue both sides of your above comment for the rest of time. Can't you?

ORIGINAL: tevans6220In other words you and the others listed in my first post aren't doing Matrix any favors. If I didn't already own JTCS I know I wouldn't buy it because of this. I certainly won't be buying any modern version because if it's to the point where only a select few are able to express their likes, dislikes or opinions without catching hell there's no point. It certainly is a niche market and a small clique within a niche market just means the market is going to be much smaller.

[X(] Oops! I thought you already made a final point? [:'(]
*** I am sorry Jason, we lost you a Modern Wars customer. *** Even though Modern Wars is a stand alone item and will be supported differently by Matrix?

I neither like your opinion or dislike your opinion. You seem like a good guy who can mix it up with grizzled old grogs? Some of us have been around the block with CS ... a few times over.

I may have strong opinions but I'll never apologize for having them. I won't dance around all "nicey nicey" so guys like you, or Rene, don't get their feelings hurt.

[:)]

RR

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: barker

ed , morning by the way need my turn ...lol

??? Played it and sent it. Let me know if you still did not get it?
I play them when I get them. [8D]

+1

RR

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: osiris
Now, Matrix Games together with Norm Koger and a new design team bring you the definitive release of this unsurpassed operational wargame – The Operational Art of War III.

Rene,

In the quote of yours quote above, you need to look closely?
I'm sure if John Tiller was willing to do what Norm did the game would be much more developed?
I think the team that is working on it is doing their best (that they can without Mr. Tiller) and to expect grand changes without the help of the original coder ... it just is not going to be?

What you want then cannot be? Why beat Jason and the crew up over it?

RR