Intelligence agents & Legends

[feygan]

Quick question regarding character recruitment in the latest expansion.

Are intelligence agents now only recruited at random through the character method as opposed to original and ROTS method where you could manually employ them?

[Erik Rutins]

That's correct, but intelligence missions and related events will increase the likelihood of generating new agents and if you are ever completely without an agent (or a character of any type), the likelihood of generating a new one is significantly increased.

Regards,

- Erik

[jpwrunyan]

I played the Ketaros last night. I lost all four of my agents over 10 years game time doing continuous 80+ success rate missions. I did not get any new agents after the last one was captured. Then the game ended. I lost. I suggest that the replacement rate for lost agents needs some adjustments.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi jpwrunyan,

Which version of the game was this with? Could you upload a late game save file for us please?

Regards,

- Erik

[jpwrunyan]

Are you saying this is a potential bug? I dont have a save cause it was a straight two hour 2x speed play. But if it happens again I will be sure to save. I have a few bug saves already to submit. I just dont know the proc for bug reporting.

[jpwrunyan]

Oh and I dont know the ver at the moment. I got the game 10 days ago off matrix site's download. So i assume it is latest ver vanilla.
About to go on a trip so apologies for not being of much help.

[ASHBERY76]

It there an issue with the mission risk calculation.It seems when I try an 86% risk mission it is more like 50% in reality because of the amount of spy's I lose.

[jpwrunyan]

Mission risk assessment does not account for enemy counter intelligence. Because your spy ops dont know how good their counter ops are. That is not a problem with game. Its supposed to be that way. And if your spies are detected (but not caught) you might assume that the other empire will put its own spies on counter-ops if they werent there already. The issue is spy recruitment/replacement. I havent gone back to the Ketaros, but I have yet to play a game where I got even one new spy. I did have a spy get replaced for being a traitor but I have had that happen with all leader types. How long should it take for me to get a new agent when I have zero agents??? I checked updates and I have the latest version of the game.

[rtrapasso]

i lost my only agent early in the game, and it was never replaced, much to my annoyance since the enemy picked off several installations by sabotage, and i couldn't order a counterespionage mission... i have saves, i think (stll do not have any agents many dozens of years on.)

Please let me know where to upload if you want it... this was under 1.700, but just now upgraded to 1.704 (but i haven't played under 1.704 yet).

The intel agent stuff seems weak (under 1.700).

[Erik Rutins]

Hi rtrapasso,

Please follow the instructions here to upload a save file for us.

tm.asp?m=2415085

Regards,

- Erik

[jpwrunyan]

Thanks for following up on this Erik and all. I like the spy system a lot so it makes me sad when I lose my last spy. Hope you are reading this with a sad face because I am writing it with one.

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

in terms of spy missions you have the CI mission which is totally passive.

the rest of the missions are basically high payoff/high risk. some of the map theft missions are 85% chance of success at one year. at face value that would seem like low risk since a high probability of success. actually, because the spies are such rare assets it's not. it's high risk--risk is measured by probability and magnitude.

now how many missions do I need to accomplish to get my spy to a 70% chance of success for a sabotage or assassination... lets say it's 5 missions for example.

that means if every map theft was 85% --- .85^5 = 44.4% chance of success to reach the ability to try a 70% sabotage... now you have a 31% chance of survival if you're planning to attempt the sabotage too.

my point is in one way or another you need many more missions with a low payoff and low/medium risk or bite the bullet and have spys grow automatically.

[jpwrunyan]

I appreciate the effort but the information in that quote does not indicate how long one will wait to get a new/replacement spy. Or maybe you werent intending to reply to me?

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

I appreciate the effort but the information in that quote does not indicate how long one will wait to get a new/replacement spy. Or maybe you werent intending to reply to me?

Per Erik above, if you have no spies you are more likely to have one spawn for you, otherwise events (like a successful offensive mission or a successful counterintelligence case) may cause a new spy to spawn (a kind of critical success bonus).

I also suggest looking in the Colony Governors thread for information. All characters are basically handled the same way.

as Ashbery76 adeptly pointed out... the race text file can give you an idea of the appearance chance. Each race has its own set of values.

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
'random character appearance chance: Minimum=0, Normal=1.0, Maximum=3.0
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceLeader ;1.0
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceAmbassador ;1.3
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceGovernor ;1.3
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceAdmiral ;0.8
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceGeneral ;0.8
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceScientist ;1.15
CharacterRandomAppearanceChanceIntelligenceAgent ;1.3

My above quote above (from elsewhere) was to address folks losing spies and then not having any available. Just because a mission looks promising at an 85% probability of success (not counting enemy CI capability?) still leaves you very vulnerable to losing spies; particularly if you plan to use them for anything above basic map theft and long-term (1 year) missions.

[adamsolo]

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

It there an issue with the mission risk calculation.It seems when I try an 86% risk mission it is more like 50% in reality because of the amount of spy's I lose.

Same feeling here. But I think I had that impression more on RotS. In Legends normally I do well with >85% (as expected ok, but in RotS 85% did felt like 50%)

[jpwrunyan]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Per Erik above, if you have no spies you are more likely to have one spawn for you, otherwise events (like a successful offensive mission or a successful counterintelligence case) may cause a new spy to spawn (a kind of critical success bonus).

Right, I know. I read that thread as well. What I really would like to know is what that likelyhood translates to in terms of actual game time.[&:] I don't think anyone actually knows. But regardless, I think it should be changed for agents since they are so vital. The other leaders are more of a bonus if you get them. But no spies means you are cut off entirely from one dimension of the game. Not saying you should just instantly get a replacement either... just, it seems like a long time as it is. Put it another way, how long should an empire go without agents once they have lost their last one? My opinion is one year. Particularly for a race like the Ketarov where (correct me if I am wrong) their main focus is spying.

Anyway, I really don't think this is a bug, even though Erik asked for save games. I got my first new recruit ever tonight! The game was 3/4 over but still... I got a new spy! So I think the recruitment is working... just very, very, slowly.

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

Mission risk assessment does not account for enemy counter intelligence. Because your spy ops dont know how good their counter ops are. That is not a problem with game. Its supposed to be that way.

Excuse me I played the game before legends and the 86 mission risk assessmenk would hardly ever fail.Now it is 50/50.

[Florestan]

IMO, characters should be less powerful, hired like in real life with a delay between the time you order one and the time it becomes active, and then chosen in a list of a few choices. Very occasional but exceptionally good bonus character could appear in the list after special events. Only one character hiring at a time to balance things. Maybe increase the hiring time for every owned character of that type, and automatically ask for next hiring when one is finished.
Spies should be instructors instead, that send their people on mission and should not die from it, but should be susceptible to assassination.
Edit: Oops, wrong reply button.

[currierm]

ORIGINAL: Florestan

Spies should be instructors instead, that send their people on mission and should not die from it, but should be susceptible to assassination.
Edit: Oops, wrong reply button.

I haven't done much with espionage in Legends yet, so maybe the changes are for the better. But I do like that idea. Make them a "spy master" character that gives bonuses to things like: mission completion time, success chance, starting skill level and the like.

[the1sean]

Here's my take on current spying under the latest patch:

Right now it's almost completely unfeasible that you will ever hit your empire's spy cap (wherever that's listed now, I can't find it BTW). As has been stated by Asherby and Malevolence, their attrition rate is actually very high considering the fact that you have to do dozens of (successful) missions to get an awesome spy trained. In addition counter-intel agents level up WAAAY too slowly. I think CI agents should slowly level up CI regardless of whether they are actively countering enemy missions or not, but of course still give them a big boost if they capture an enemy agent.

Newby spies should be a dime a dozen, if he is captured the main worry for a player shouldn't be replacing him, it should be more about the possible reputation and relations hit. Spies should repopulate up to your maximum fairly quickly. Why? Cuz they suck, a newb spy will take a YEAR to steal a TERRITORY MAP with any reliable chance of success. Yes, if spies are replaced much more regularly then you will over time be able to develop one or two truly useful spies that you can take the chance of losing to pull off really big missions. That's the point though, high risk/reward. Currently its much too static.

As the