FatR: More accurate modeling of the IJN is rarely a problem with me. Nice work.
BigRed:
--Changing the roads to trails would help but would have additional complications. This is the fundamental porblem when one starts playing around with trying to do what we're thinking about. It is like a tar baby. Where you start with one thing, another piece enters the pictures, then another, and another...
--Am not sure regarding small craft going further up-river. Anyone know anything about that?
Thanks for the ideas. ALWAYS good!
Reluctant Admiral 3.0
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: A China Proposal
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
Currently navigability on the Yangtze is binary; you either have a 'navigable' river, which can take ships of up to 15000t, or you have a major non-navigable river which can't take shipping at all. In stock, navigability goes as far as Wuhan and then ends. The Yangtze was navigable as far as Chungking, up to a point - the water level was too low for large ships at some times and flow too rough at others - the rapids from Ichang on upwards are infamously lethal. So, you have a relatively small number of military ships that are capable of making the trip - this was a motivation behind some of the RN, USN, MN etc gunboats - and most of the traffic is handled by motorised or sailing junks and barges that are light enough to be towed upstream when the rapids are in full blast and handy enough to make it downstream without capsizing, but these are so small that in a lot of ways they're really better represented by ground supply movement. The only way around this as far as I'm aware is the "planned" solution in PFW, which is making the Yangtze "navigable" further up but inserting a reef crossing at Wuhan, which limits movement between the systems to vessels of 100t or less. There aren't many of those - frankly it's still not a good solution - I don't think there is one, really.
Degrading road quality isn't a bad idea per se. I avoided approaching it in thinking about PW as the art changes were liable to be a pain and I am not actually certain of road quality issues in the key areas - lots of anecdotes about terrible conditions but I haven't seen anything concrete. It's probably sensible insofar as neither side really has anything resembling a motorised force and so better roads are of limited use as far as concerns accelerated movement - but most of the 'critical' areas run along the railways anyway, so the difference is limited. Probably one of those issues that make little difference either way, since none of the combatants can make use of strategic redeployment on roads, so I can't see any harm in doing it if the desire is there.
Degrading road quality isn't a bad idea per se. I avoided approaching it in thinking about PW as the art changes were liable to be a pain and I am not actually certain of road quality issues in the key areas - lots of anecdotes about terrible conditions but I haven't seen anything concrete. It's probably sensible insofar as neither side really has anything resembling a motorised force and so better roads are of limited use as far as concerns accelerated movement - but most of the 'critical' areas run along the railways anyway, so the difference is limited. Probably one of those issues that make little difference either way, since none of the combatants can make use of strategic redeployment on roads, so I can't see any harm in doing it if the desire is there.
RE: A China Proposal
FYI, in a previous game i invaded the Chungking plain from Sian thru the mountains w/ the 1st and 12th Armies. I was using trail supply from Sian. I did arrive at Chungking and laid siege. In that campaign I suffered permanent damage to my IJN infantry because of a shortage of overland supply. I could not get my damaged IJN infantry to rebuild themselves. I later(after a 6 month mistake) opened a supply path from the south on a major road. In some of my Jap divisions the squads were reduced by 50% caused by eating earth worms(lack of supply via trail).ORIGINAL: kfsgo
Currently navigability on the Yangtze is binary; you either have a 'navigable' river, which can take ships of up to 15000t, or you have a major non-navigable river which can't take shipping at all. In stock, navigability goes as far as Wuhan and then ends. The Yangtze was navigable as far as Chungking, up to a point - the water level was too low for large ships at some times and flow too rough at others - the rapids from Ichang on upwards are infamously lethal. So, you have a relatively small number of military ships that are capable of making the trip - this was a motivation behind some of the RN, USN, MN etc gunboats - and most of the traffic is handled by motorised or sailing junks and barges that are light enough to be towed upstream when the rapids are in full blast and handy enough to make it downstream without capsizing, but these are so small that in a lot of ways they're really better represented by ground supply movement. The only way around this as far as I'm aware is the "planned" solution in PFW, which is making the Yangtze "navigable" further up but inserting a reef crossing at Wuhan, which limits movement between the systems to vessels of 100t or less. There aren't many of those - frankly it's still not a good solution - I don't think there is one, really.
Degrading road quality isn't a bad idea per se. I avoided approaching it in thinking about PW as the art changes were liable to be a pain and I am not actually certain of road quality issues in the key areas - lots of anecdotes about terrible conditions but I haven't seen anything concrete. It's probably sensible insofar as neither side really has anything resembling a motorised force and so better roads are of limited use as far as concerns accelerated movement - but most of the 'critical' areas run along the railways anyway, so the difference is limited. Probably one of those issues that make little difference either way, since none of the combatants can make use of strategic redeployment on roads, so I can't see any harm in doing it if the desire is there.
I think if you want to create a more static front then we need to remove the major road access to CK from the south. Make these major roads trails. Then the Japs will have a hard time getting in and the Chinese a hard time getting out. The Chinese will come out to play in 44 when the Americans can get them some coastal resupply or reopen the Burma road.
i guess this would really be the "middle kingdom" solution. Hard to get in, hard to get out.
I will ask El Sid for his library opinion.
RE: A China Proposal
ORIGINAL: bigred
FYI, in a previous game i invaded the Chungking plain from Sian thru the mountains w/ the 1st and 12th Armies. I was using trail supply from Sian. I did arrive at Chungking and laid siege. In that campaign I suffered permanent damage to my IJN infantry because of a shortage of overland supply. I could not get my damaged IJN infantry to rebuild themselves. I later(after a 6 month mistake) opened a supply path from the south on a major road. In some of my Jap divisions the infantry strength was reduced by 50%.
I think if you want to create a more static front then we need to remove the major road access to CK from the south. Make these major roads trails. Then the Japs will have a hard time getting in and the Chinese a hard time getting out. The Chinese will come out to play in 44 when the Americans can get them some coastal resupply or reopen the Burma road.
i guess this would really be the "middle kingdom" solution. Hard to get in, hard to get out.
I will ask El Sid for his library opinion.
As far as I'm aware during such periods as the Japanese were actually thinking about moving into the Szechwan basin the preferred option was up the Yangtze - so in game terms, start from Ichang and move upriver - with other avenues of entry being considered impractical. I guess it's easier to have a hundred Yangtze barges built than several thousand trucks, and practically speaking they'd get more done. Unfortunately non-navigable rivers aren't supply pathways in-game except insofar as they interact with base supply draw limits, which aren't in force in China outside Yunnan.
In game terms, you can get a similar level of supply flow from anywhere - in the sense that troops in hostile bases or open country will draw whatever amount they need, as long as the movement cost to do so isn't too extreme. Any Japanese in Chungking should be able to draw supply from as far away as Pusan if they need to and have a pathway - they'll just only be able to do so once a week rather than two or four times. Practical cost of doing so will be higher in that wastage in transport will be higher, but it'd be possible to do. To actually make that impractical you'd probably have to reroute roads entirely, rather than just degrading their quality - make'em sinuous so that movement from one hex to the next takes twice as much effort as it would with a straight link.
RE: A China Proposal
I seems to me simply raising the garrison requirements would go a long way towards doing what we've discussed. Would LOVE to do some of these other ideas, however, the work needed to be done to achieve this would be high. Just ask kfsgo abouot the work he has done in Perfect War! Buckets o' time!
Are there other options?
Are there other options?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
Email from ElSid:
In RHS, the Upper Yangtze is a navigable river. While not a land supply path, it is a naval supply path - either manually (move the ships yourself) or automatic (use convoy routing). The defense for the Allies is best by air - planes will kill the small supply vessels. Above Wuhan, the Yangtze is not navigable to ocean ships (as IRL). Wuhan shipyard is very old - and built ocean ships in the 19th century - and submarines today (deep draft vessels, modern subs).
However, in RHS there are more supply sources. vs a dumb opponent, who did not garrison his interior cities, one might attempt an airborn coup - then both fly in and move via road regular army units - to open up a new axis and - more important - to isolate the Chinese defense. I find it is best to cut off the enemy from supply sources before trying to drive him out of an area, or wipe him out.
Sid
RE: A China Proposal
Reply to query re supply in China.
This depends a great deal on the scenario. SOME mods have a good deal more supply in China than stock does. Even so, the real variable is - does the mod
permit you to use the river systems? IF it does - the Yangtze was the major logistical route of China then - you may both move and supply using the river.
Ocean ships - deep draft - should be able to reach Wuhan (since the 19th century this was possible, and Wuhan shipyard build and still builds ocean ships -
the Great Bridge in Nanking built post war was designed to permit the Queen Mary to sail benieth it). Above Wuhan, the Yangtze should be an ordinary navigable
river - all the way to Chunking. If it is, you can move supply along the river - manually or using auto convoys. The Allied defense is best by air. Planes can chew
up small river shipping badly. Again, depending on the mod, this may be a real option: the Chinese air force should be strong in the interior - far from Japanese bases -
and priorities. China should be making some airplanes - see Liowing for example - unless it is threatened by the Japanese in Burma (as IRL). See my post on the CW-21
Demon - a remarkable fighter which is about to enter production in China when the war begins - a bomber interceptor that can escape fighters bout climbing out of reach.
It was successful in Dutch hands (although overwhelmed - they assembled it in Bandoeng on Java). But a serious Japanese effort should be a problem for China.
See the late war offensive to get B-29 bases. They got em all, and linked up rail lines all the way to Indochina (which means the map ought to have such rail lines to link up).
This depends a great deal on the scenario. SOME mods have a good deal more supply in China than stock does. Even so, the real variable is - does the mod
permit you to use the river systems? IF it does - the Yangtze was the major logistical route of China then - you may both move and supply using the river.
Ocean ships - deep draft - should be able to reach Wuhan (since the 19th century this was possible, and Wuhan shipyard build and still builds ocean ships -
the Great Bridge in Nanking built post war was designed to permit the Queen Mary to sail benieth it). Above Wuhan, the Yangtze should be an ordinary navigable
river - all the way to Chunking. If it is, you can move supply along the river - manually or using auto convoys. The Allied defense is best by air. Planes can chew
up small river shipping badly. Again, depending on the mod, this may be a real option: the Chinese air force should be strong in the interior - far from Japanese bases -
and priorities. China should be making some airplanes - see Liowing for example - unless it is threatened by the Japanese in Burma (as IRL). See my post on the CW-21
Demon - a remarkable fighter which is about to enter production in China when the war begins - a bomber interceptor that can escape fighters bout climbing out of reach.
It was successful in Dutch hands (although overwhelmed - they assembled it in Bandoeng on Java). But a serious Japanese effort should be a problem for China.
See the late war offensive to get B-29 bases. They got em all, and linked up rail lines all the way to Indochina (which means the map ought to have such rail lines to link up).
RE: A China Proposal
How hard would it be to makes changes to the map? (I dread asking this question)
kfsgo: Have you done something like this in PW?
kfsgo: Have you done something like this in PW?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
ORIGINAL: John 3rd
How hard would it be to makes changes to the map? (I dread asking this question)
kfsgo: Have you done something like this in PW?
Editing the pwhex file is easy - there's an editor, after all. Editing the art so that the appearance of it corresponds to the new reality on the ground is also pretty easy. Editing the art so that the new stuff looks good...that might take a bit longer.
I haven't done any of this in PW yet - though it'll need to be done at some point to implement the Yangtze navigability changes etc.
e: the only thing is that although there's an editor it doesn't address the issue of the new terrain troop limits; are you using that stuff now? It might break it (and might not, but the point is I don't know).
RE: A China Proposal
While I would really LOVE to do some of the things detailed above, I think we simply opt to tweak China by raising the garrison requirements as outlined earlier. This is the easier move that won't take a bunch of time and effort. We've got a number of people waiting for this to be released so lets simply go with it.
kfsgo: Should I shoot the files to you once Stanislav is done with them or is this something I can do? You outlined the garrison #s for the Chinese. What do you think with the Japanese side of the line?
kfsgo: Should I shoot the files to you once Stanislav is done with them or is this something I can do? You outlined the garrison #s for the Chinese. What do you think with the Japanese side of the line?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
You could do it yourself but it might be quicker for me to since I know exactly what to do (since it'll be similar to the PW setup...not identical, but similar); so, sure, send'em over.
FatR Changes
Here is the note I just got with the files from Stanislav:
1)Revised stats like displacement, speed, fuel load, MVR on nearly all major Japanese surface combatants.
2)Nearly completely revised pre-Akizuki DD upgrades, partially for historical accuracy, as far as I could judge from scraps of information I could get (no single 25mm mounts in 1941 and so on), partially to reflect reality of the game and enhanced nature of the mod (so while I hope there is no physically impossible upgrades, a large number of upgrades is considerably advanced compared to RL and somewhat advanced compared to older dates). In general, older DDs get a bit more MGs with more rational placement, treaty DDs get less, and Kageros/Yugumos get a lot less, but mostly keep their anti-surface armament. Kagero DDs get their rear turrets replaced with 127/40 twins in late 1943 (allegedly, although sources are not very clear, some Yugumos got a single 127/40 twin in place of their turret #2 late in the war, in this alternative lots of 127/40 mounts are lying around after upgrading large warships, and their installation will allow to save weight for flak/ASW upgrades). You'll like Akizukis here, not because they are significantly better, but because of how much more flak MGs and depth charges they can pack, compared to their precedessors.
Another big change is introduction of a late-war upgrade for APD versions of Mutsuki/Minekaze/Kamikaze, so you won't need to upgrade them to escorts if you want late-war equipment.
3)Heavily revised CA upgrades, mostly changing when they get extra flak MGs, and flak MG positioning.
4)Added Ki-45d into Ki-45 upgrade line, and added radar-equipped Ki-45e for late 1944. That reminds me - I forgot to make any Army nightfighter groups available sooner! Although with upgrade line like this, it will be possible to automatically turn any Ki-45-equipped groups into nightfighter groups.
5)Made a few other planes tweak - better S1A like I posited for Perfect War, Ki-67 and Ki-119 using Ha-42 engines as they should, twin HMGs replacing single cannons on late Frances version as they probably should.
1)Revised stats like displacement, speed, fuel load, MVR on nearly all major Japanese surface combatants.
2)Nearly completely revised pre-Akizuki DD upgrades, partially for historical accuracy, as far as I could judge from scraps of information I could get (no single 25mm mounts in 1941 and so on), partially to reflect reality of the game and enhanced nature of the mod (so while I hope there is no physically impossible upgrades, a large number of upgrades is considerably advanced compared to RL and somewhat advanced compared to older dates). In general, older DDs get a bit more MGs with more rational placement, treaty DDs get less, and Kageros/Yugumos get a lot less, but mostly keep their anti-surface armament. Kagero DDs get their rear turrets replaced with 127/40 twins in late 1943 (allegedly, although sources are not very clear, some Yugumos got a single 127/40 twin in place of their turret #2 late in the war, in this alternative lots of 127/40 mounts are lying around after upgrading large warships, and their installation will allow to save weight for flak/ASW upgrades). You'll like Akizukis here, not because they are significantly better, but because of how much more flak MGs and depth charges they can pack, compared to their precedessors.
Another big change is introduction of a late-war upgrade for APD versions of Mutsuki/Minekaze/Kamikaze, so you won't need to upgrade them to escorts if you want late-war equipment.
3)Heavily revised CA upgrades, mostly changing when they get extra flak MGs, and flak MG positioning.
4)Added Ki-45d into Ki-45 upgrade line, and added radar-equipped Ki-45e for late 1944. That reminds me - I forgot to make any Army nightfighter groups available sooner! Although with upgrade line like this, it will be possible to automatically turn any Ki-45-equipped groups into nightfighter groups.
5)Made a few other planes tweak - better S1A like I posited for Perfect War, Ki-67 and Ki-119 using Ha-42 engines as they should, twin HMGs replacing single cannons on late Frances version as they probably should.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
ORIGINAL: kfsgo
You could do it yourself but it might be quicker for me to since I know exactly what to do (since it'll be similar to the PW setup...not identical, but similar); so, sure, send'em over.
DEAL. Files being sent to you right NOW!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
Wanna talk about Fast? I mean FAST?? kfsgo has already done his work and sent the updated files back to me. How about that??!!
Fantastic.
Home Phase. I need to get some work done and make sure the IJN LCU changes are finalized and then we can release 4.0. NICE!
Fantastic.
Home Phase. I need to get some work done and make sure the IJN LCU changes are finalized and then we can release 4.0. NICE!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
One more note on my changes - I added 5mm of armor to main guns of all Jap destroyers that have fully enclosed turrets, as Allied DDs have similar protections. Don't think it really matters, just in the interest of fairness.
Also, I should mention, that due to more powerful Japanese military industry in this mod, some upgrades happen faster. Cruisers get their main flak upgrades in late 1943 and DDs throughout 1943, surface search radars also are available a couple months earlier. Though in some cases ships still carry fewer 25mms that they did previously in the game, particularly throughout 1942.
Also, I should mention, that due to more powerful Japanese military industry in this mod, some upgrades happen faster. Cruisers get their main flak upgrades in late 1943 and DDs throughout 1943, surface search radars also are available a couple months earlier. Though in some cases ships still carry fewer 25mms that they did previously in the game, particularly throughout 1942.
The Reluctant Admiral mod team.
Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/
RE: A China Proposal
Files sent back to FatR for a quick fix on his side.
Michael had commented on the surface search radars as well. Good work there.
Michael had commented on the surface search radars as well. Good work there.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: A China Proposal
Stanislav already has sent the files back to me after his quick 'fix.' Once I've finished the IJN LCUs, the 4.0 will be released. It will be placed at the start of this Thread for easy download. As I get to thinking about it, I need to make sure the artwork and scenario description is attached to it. That will take a little time. Will update the Intro as well...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Christmas Break Ends
The boys are back in school today and so, FINALLY, I can devote myself to getting RA 4.0 complete. Plan to have things done by Thursday or Friday. Will Post the 'things done' list here as I go.
Who might like to see the files BEFORE release to look for any issues that may have been missed by Stanislav, kfsgo, or myself? If interested, email me at jrc_3@msn.com.
Who might like to see the files BEFORE release to look for any issues that may have been missed by Stanislav, kfsgo, or myself? If interested, email me at jrc_3@msn.com.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Da Babes Site
We got excellent news this morning. JWE and his team has agreed to allow RA to be Posted on their excellent Da Babes site! Since RA is now patterned off of Da Babes Scenarios, this made a lot of sense to me. How about that?!!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Things Done
Things Added/Changed:
1. A Fighter, 2EB, and 4EB Training Wings have been added as a static unit at Wendover Field to allow for a limited US Army Training Program. This allows for the Army to gain some training just as the Navy does with their VF, VB, and VT units. Each Training Wing can expand up to 48 planes.
2. USA starting Supply and Fuel is slashed 50% to better reflect a slower start for the Good Ole USA.
3. Added an Air Fleet/Air Flotilla Upgrade for the Japanese in 1943 allowing these units to gain more AA Guns and Radar.
4. Deleted 12 Naval Guard units and replaced them with 10 Atoll Defense units as described above in earlier Posts.
5. Checked China Garrison requirements done by kfsgo and am really hopeful the increased requirements will force a real slowdown in this theatre. More units will be tied up if China or Japan starts major offensive operations.
6. Added a Tina Production Line at Nagasaki since none were being produced at war's start and there are slightly more planes operational at start. It begins producing 6 planes a month.
1. A Fighter, 2EB, and 4EB Training Wings have been added as a static unit at Wendover Field to allow for a limited US Army Training Program. This allows for the Army to gain some training just as the Navy does with their VF, VB, and VT units. Each Training Wing can expand up to 48 planes.
2. USA starting Supply and Fuel is slashed 50% to better reflect a slower start for the Good Ole USA.
3. Added an Air Fleet/Air Flotilla Upgrade for the Japanese in 1943 allowing these units to gain more AA Guns and Radar.
4. Deleted 12 Naval Guard units and replaced them with 10 Atoll Defense units as described above in earlier Posts.
5. Checked China Garrison requirements done by kfsgo and am really hopeful the increased requirements will force a real slowdown in this theatre. More units will be tied up if China or Japan starts major offensive operations.
6. Added a Tina Production Line at Nagasaki since none were being produced at war's start and there are slightly more planes operational at start. It begins producing 6 planes a month.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.