Pilot Training Modifications, Proposal

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Pax, both you and Puhis seem to be the one's missing the point.

It is exactly the hard coded rate of plane production for the Allies that necessitates hard coding of the Japanese.

All the arguments about giving the player the freedom to deviate from history need to swing both ways.

For how long now have Allied players been pleading with the devs to give them an ability to increase plane production rates in response to Japanese player actions? How long now has this plea fallen on deaf ears?

Do you two, as players, truly believe the Allied players should be forced to play with one hand tied behind thier backs by hard coding while the Japanese players continue to have both hands free?

Do either of you truly believe this is fair?

I would agree with you in allowing the allies to "switch" production but not to increase, thats to much.

Well, at least you're willing to bend a little. In the face of the inflexibility I encounter from most Japanese players I find it refreshing.

However, if your stance is that it shouldn't be possible for the Allies to "increase" thier ability to kick a** in the late game (beyond historical capabilities), then how can it be fair to allow the Japanese player the ability to "increase" the degree with which they can kick a** in the early game, easily rampaging through India, Australia and China (way, way, way beyond historical capabilities)?

I just can't fathom the equity in such an arangement.

[Puhis]

Show us scen 1 games where Japan easily rampage through India, please. Have you actually ever played Japan to see how easy it is?

I use only one hand when I play anyway.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Show us scen 1 games where Japan easily rampage through India, please. Have you actually ever played Japan to see how easy it is?

I use only one hand when I play anyway.

show me one post in this thread that restricts this discussion to scenario 1

[SqzMyLemon]

Changed my mind. Didn't like the tone of my response.

[racndoc]

I think that AE handles the early war A2A experience pretty well as its currently designed. I wouldn't play AE if it was hard coded for the Japanese to have "swept the floor with US pilots" during the early war. Japan may have "swept the floor" with Allied pilots....certainly not US pilots. The AVG gave much better than it got from day 1 of the war. It seems that it was more of a doctrinal issue than an experience issue. Chennault analyzed the capabilities of the Japanese fighters he faced in the CBI and developed a winning combat doctrine and setup for his fighters that was seen immediately.

[crsutton]

Quite frankly, in my mind the best solution is to get rid of pilot training altogether. I find it to be nothing but a tedious click fest and it almost doubles the amount of time that I spend on my turns. Although interesting at first, now that I am in the late war and having to manage so many Allied pilots and units, I just can stand it.

Massive time suck that adds very little to the game. I would much rather see it go so that I could add another campaign game to my schedule.

That said, the proposals of LoBaron seem reasonable and worth a try if we gotta do it..

[ADB123]

Quite frankly, in my mind the best solution is to get rid of pilot training altogether. I find it to be nothing but a tedious click fest and it almost doubles the amount of time that I spend on my turns. Although interesting at first, now that I am in the late war and having to manage so many Allied pilots and units, I just can stand it.

Massive time suck that adds very little to the game. I would much rather see it go so that I could add another campaign game to my schedule.

That's the best suggestion I've heard yet! [&o]

Why not make pilot training as a starting "option" - like PDU On/OFF. This way those folks who want it can chose it, and the rest of us can avoid it.

[witpqs]

crsutton,

Without commenting on having pilot training or not (I have given in to the majority of players on that one), in the later Beta releases Michael has put in many things (a bunch being player suggestions) that dramatically reduce the time spent on pilot management. Really big time. I don't feel it to be a burden at all now, just a smallish task. It's that big a difference.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

crsutton,

Without commenting on having pilot training or not (I have given in to the majority of players on that one), in the later Beta releases Michael has put in many things (a bunch being player suggestions) that dramatically reduce the time spent on pilot management. Really big time. I don't feel it to be a burden at all now, just a smallish task. It's that big a difference.

Yes, I have played with some of them but have not gotten the latest beta yet. They do help but still it just takes up a lot of time. I guess I just envision myself as Chester Nimitz-not some unknown officer in the rear dealing with green pilots...[;)]

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

Quite frankly, in my mind the best solution is to get rid of pilot training altogether. I find it to be nothing but a tedious click fest and it almost doubles the amount of time that I spend on my turns. Although interesting at first, now that I am in the late war and having to manage so many Allied pilots and units, I just can stand it.

Massive time suck that adds very little to the game. I would much rather see it go so that I could add another campaign game to my schedule.

That's the best suggestion I've heard yet! [&o]

Why not make pilot training as a starting "option" - like PDU On/OFF. This way those folks who want it can chose it, and the rest of us can avoid it.

In AE, pilot training is - and ALWAYS has been - optional.

Simply put your replacement pilots in the units, and play the game. If you feel that starting experience is too low/too high, simply change the value in the editor.

There is no need to change the way AE handles pilot training.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Show us scen 1 games where Japan easily rampage through India, please. Have you actually ever played Japan to see how easy it is?

I use only one hand when I play anyway.

show me one post in this thread that restricts this discussion to scenario 1

Sorry, I failed to understand that you are complaining Japan's ahistorical capabilities in ahistorical scenarios.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Show us scen 1 games where Japan easily rampage through India, please. Have you actually ever played Japan to see how easy it is?

I use only one hand when I play anyway.

show me one post in this thread that restricts this discussion to scenario 1

Sorry, I failed to understand that you are complaining Japan's ahistorical capabilities in ahistorical scenarios.

I should have emphasised that these changes were proposed with scen 1 in mind. How it affects other scenarios, or even
is a change that makes sense as they are ahistorical anyway does not interest me much.

Scen 1 is the only scenario which you can use in any way to compare to actual history.
A change that supports historical gameplay doesn´t make much sense in an ahistorical scenario.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I should have emphasised that these changes were proposed with scen 1 in mind. How it affects other scenarios, or even
is a change that makes sense as they are ahistorical anyway does not interest me much.

Scen 1 is the only scenario which you can use in any way to compare to actual history.
A change that supports historical gameplay doesn´t make much sense in an ahistorical scenario.

I think that was pretty obvious.

What I'm missing is more deviation of the pilot skills. Now it seems that after month or two of training, all pilots are straight from Clone wars. It should be more like a bell curve: only a few good students, most of them mediocre, and then some not so good ones.

[Banzan]

Sorry, but i have to agree with HansBolter here. You are asking for a game change, not a mod/scen change! Doing so you have to think of the entire picture, not only the part you are interested in. And what you are asking for will have massive effects on the game, even if only changed at a small degree.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I should have emphasised that these changes were proposed with scen 1 in mind. How it affects other scenarios, or even
is a change that makes sense as they are ahistorical anyway does not interest me much.

Scen 1 is the only scenario which you can use in any way to compare to actual history.
A change that supports historical gameplay doesn´t make much sense in an ahistorical scenario.

I think that was pretty obvious.

What I'm missing is more deviation of the pilot skills. Now it seems that after month or two of training, all pilots are straight from Clone wars. It should be more like a bell curve: only a few good students, most of them mediocre, and then some not so good ones.

+1
To all points.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I should have emphasised that these changes were proposed with scen 1 in mind. How it affects other scenarios, or even
is a change that makes sense as they are ahistorical anyway does not interest me much.

Scen 1 is the only scenario which you can use in any way to compare to actual history.
A change that supports historical gameplay doesn´t make much sense in an ahistorical scenario.

I think that was pretty obvious.

What I'm missing is more deviation of the pilot skills. Now it seems that after month or two of training, all pilots are straight from Clone wars. It should be more like a bell curve: only a few good students, most of them mediocre, and then some not so good ones.

+1
To all points.

+1 to all points as well.

Let me explain why this is so:

I simply was not able to come up with an idea how to implement a high impact randomzier without massive changes on DB AND code side.
My proposal should be doable, not scream "nice fantasy" in the first place.

The best way such a skill spread could be reached, is to add a hidden cap on max skill per pilot on pilot generation. So an additional
value which has to be
- implemented into the DB for named pilots
- implemented into the code to generate this value on pilot generation
- implemented in the training routine
- implemented into skill gain calculations through combat

This would be great! IMHO it is impossible as well, as it is far beyond the capacities of the community and whats left of the devs.
If anybody comes up with a suggestion that requires less ressources, please do so, I´d highly apprechiate.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Banzan

Sorry, but i have to agree with HansBolter here. You are asking for a game change, not a mod/scen change! Doing so you have to think of the entire picture, not only the part you are interested in. And what you are asking for will have massive effects on the game, even if only changed at a small degree.

Bazan, just to make clear why I believe the impact of this will have less to no effect on scen 2 and others, or the impact can be
reduced to an absolute minimum by small changes:

With my proposal the avg. skill of pilots is partly governed by the off map training again. Thats an accessible value.
The base exp can be modified if neccesary, in scen2 or ironman this is already the case.
If the base values for Japanese and Allied off map training is the same, the balance does not change compared to the
current situation (both sides able to train 70skill pilots without any difference to nationality).

So nothing would be different balance wise for fantasy scenarios which are equaled out anyway.

[Banzan]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

If the base values for Japanese and Allied off map training is the same, the balance does not change compared to the
current situation (both sides able to train 70skill pilots without any difference to nationality).

I would agree if both sides would have the same base, but they havn't. If you change the way you get new pilots or their quality, the advantage of the japanese base pilots become a much stronger effect, or, if you would make it more easy, it would lower the japanese pilot advantage.


And as people start to bring the "historical" argument, how do you fit the japanese ability to research planes into the "vision of historical correctness", without the allied side being able to do it? I guess the US War economy was sooo streched that they were not able to do it, while the japanese economy had lots of spaces to do so. *sarcasm off*

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Show us scen 1 games where Japan easily rampage through India, please. Have you actually ever played Japan to see how easy it is?

I use only one hand when I play anyway.

show me one post in this thread that restricts this discussion to scenario 1

Sorry, I failed to understand that you are complaining Japan's ahistorical capabilities in ahistorical scenarios.

Indeed it seems you do, because that is not what I'm arguing.

What I am arguing is that it it is unfair and inequitable to allow the Japanese player to be unshackled from hard coded historical limitations in an ahistorical scenario that allow the Japanese player to rampage across the map and deliver an ahistorical a** whooping on the Allied player while the Allied player is shackled by hard coded historical limitations that preclude him from delivering a commensurate ahistorical a** whooping in return.

I simply utilize reverse arguments to make my points on a fairly regular basis and unfortunately reverse arguments seem to all too often leave very large and ugly bruises on the foreheads of many on this forum.

That the manner in which I utilize reverse arguments seems to be so little understood is the primary cause of the animosity I find myself on the receiving end of so often. I used to respond with caustic vitriol to the few who carried those bruises who began stalking and sniping at every post I made with caustic personal insults of their own belittling me as an idiot becuse they were incapable of grasping the concept of a reverse agrument.

Following a spate of green buttoning some time ago I resolved to temper my reactionary nature and behave on these boards in a more civil manner even with those who weren't deserving of it. I have found since that level headed explanations presented in civil discourse provide for a more enjoyable time spent here.

Please don't garner the impression I am accusing you of being one of those who have responded with caustic denegrations to my postings. Most of them are still green buttoned and no longer receive responses from me at all. You've responded in a civil manner with genuine questions that deserve civil responses and explanations.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Banzan

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

If the base values for Japanese and Allied off map training is the same, the balance does not change compared to the
current situation (both sides able to train 70skill pilots without any difference to nationality).

I would agree if both sides would have the same base, but they havn't. If you change the way you get new pilots or their quality, the advantage of the japanese base pilots become a much stronger effect, or, if you would make it more easy, it would lower the japanese pilot advantage.


And as people start to bring the "historical" argument, how do you fit the japanese ability to research planes into the "vision of historical correctness", without the allied side being able to do it? I guess the US War economy was sooo streched that they were not able to do it, while the japanese economy had lots of spaces to do so. *sarcasm off*

Personally I'd like to see every post 6/1942 Japanese plane delayed first 1, then 2, 3 and 4-5 months depending on how late they appear. Idea being that player could get all planes at historical date but would have to drop models if he wanted any of them earlier.

Now Japan gets all planes at historical date or earlier, which I dont think is right as real japan did achieve those dates by putting resources into R&D.

EDIT: I realized I'm a JFB. so of course for a tradeoff I want the 4Es seriously nerfed. [;)][;)]