Starting to think that AT guns don't work.

[crsutton]

Yes,sorry I missed the tanks. However, the problem is that there is no way of telling what is working and what is not when you are using a massive stack of units. My original post makes mention of an independent AT units. I have no idea if AT guns organic to infantry units are working or not. They may very well be but some testing would have to be done with smaller units in a more controlled environment. I am working on that now.

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

Ive had pretty good luck all game with the Allied anti-tank guns:



Ground combat at Myitkyina (64,42)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 47234 troops, 526 guns, 809 vehicles, Assault Value = 1823

Defending force 34565 troops, 401 guns, 250 vehicles, Assault Value = 1270

Japanese adjusted assault: 2133

Allied adjusted defense: 5527

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-)
experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
5419 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 257 disabled
Non Combat: 14 destroyed, 364 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 30 disabled
Vehicles lost 237 (7 destroyed, 230 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1311 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 149 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 53 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled


Assaulting units:
55th Division
20th Recon Regiment
14th Tank Regiment
9th Armored Car Co
56th Division
3rd Tank Regiment
1st Recon Regiment
2nd Division
2nd Tank Regiment
7th Tank Regiment
1st Tank Regiment
26th Recon Regiment
6th RF Gun Battalion
15th Army
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
41st Air Defense AA Regiment
4th RF Gun Battalion
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
21st Ind.AA Gun Co
3rd Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
BFF Brigade
16th Indian Brigade
3rd Burma Battalion
31st Infantry Regiment
44th Indian Brigade
Railway BAF Battalion
4th Burma Battalion
1st Burma Brigade
46th Indian Brigade
2nd Burma Brigade
1st Burma Battalion
13th Indian Brigade
45th Indian Brigade
36th Chinese Division
2nd Burma Battalion
641st Towed TD Bn /1
102nd RAF Base Force
103rd RN Base Force
106th RAF Base Force
27th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
Burma Corps
107th RAF Base Force
103rd RAF Base Force
101st RAF Base Force
1st Burma Auxiliary AA Regiment
85th British AT Gun Regiment
2/215th Bty 80th AT Rgt /1
272/273rd Bty 80th AT Rgt /1
100th RAF Base Force
104th RAF Base Force
109th Tank Attack Rgt /1



That was about 25% of the IJA armor vehicles disabled/killed in 1 attack. Are you certain that your anti-tank guns in China have suffucient supplies?


Chinese LCUs on the other hand are nearly helpless against IJA armor....even when the Japanese are attacking at 1:99 odds:



Ground combat at 83,59

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 1410 troops, 0 guns, 186 vehicles, Assault Value = 221

Defending force 19184 troops, 157 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 660

Japanese adjusted assault: 24

Allied adjusted defense: 2377

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-)


Allied ground losses:
272 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Assaulting units:
12th Tank Regiment
58th Infantry Regiment
9th Tank Rgt /2

Defending units:
5th Chinese Cavalry Corps
46th Chinese/B Corps
86th Chinese/C Corps
71st Chinese/C Corps
46th Chinese/A Corps
65th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Division
49th Chinese/C Corps
7th War Area



Sorry, this would not be a good example as there are plenty of other Allied assets in your massive stack that will easily kill Japanese tanks. If this battle is after 1943 then your average Commonweath infantry squad has excellent AT values and can stand up to any Japanese tanks. Not to mention your own tanks which seem to be working fine in the game. I am not sure about AT guns that are found in an infantry unit either. My example was a pure AT unit.

Note that your defending Chinese pure infantry defenders did not even disable one tank. Hells Bells, we are talking about Japanese tanks and tankettes. I would expect 10% to be lost to mechanical breakdowns in any attack regardless of the defenders. And eventually some Chinese "Dare Death" squad (ASL players will know ) is bound to throw a grenade bundle into a weak spot.

_____________________________

"Many years ago, I once had a conversation with a prostitute in Chile."

Sorry.....this is an excellent example of AT guns in action. First of all...this battle was from 8/42. Nearly all the Allied brigades are crap Burma Corps and the only brigade that has any AT guns at all(other than 31st Inf. Regiment) is the 16th Indian and they have a total of 4 AT guns.

The 31st Inf. Regiment was purchased with PPs from Luzon and sent to China specifically because it had 18 organic 37mm AT guns. Then it was airlifted from China to Myitkina just a couple of days before this assault.

Im not sure about your tank comment. I didnt have a single Allied tank involved in the battle. If you are referring to the 109th Tank Attack Regiment it consists of 36 2-pdr AT guns. So this virtual IJA panzer corps was thrashed by 108 AT guns from five AT gun LCUs and 22 organic AT guns from infantry formations.

If you still dont like this example Ive got another from 2/14/42 thats even more impressive. Here the IJA Panzer korps is still in China and they are thrashed by the two Chinese AT regiments in the forests S of Sian:


Ground combat at 85,44

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 148847 troops, 1309 guns, 1420 vehicles, Assault Value = 5690

Defending force 126774 troops, 821 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4515

Japanese adjusted assault: 2838

Allied adjusted defense: 5476

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
9264 casualties reported
Squads: 29 destroyed, 740 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 478 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 44 disabled
Vehicles lost 190 (5 destroyed, 185 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
5775 casualties reported
Squads: 103 destroyed, 723 disabled
Non Combat: 21 destroyed, 563 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 49 disabled


Assaulting units:
7th Ind.Mixed Brigade
17th Division
14th RGC Temp. Division
3rd Tank Regiment
26th Recon Regiment
20th Recon Regiment
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
35th Division
15th Tank Regiment
12th RGC Temp. Division
6th Division
34th Division
1st Recon Regiment
6th Ind.Mixed Brigade
36th Division
41st Division
116th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
23rd Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
13th Ind.Mixed Brigade
10th Tank Regiment
37th Division
8th Recon Regiment
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
9th Tank Regiment
12th Tank Regiment
13th Tank Regiment
18th RGC Temp. Division
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Mongol Garrison Army
4th RF Gun Battalion
6th RF Gun Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
22nd AA Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Bn /5

Defending units:
45th Chinese Corps
36th Chinese/C Corps
57th Chinese/A Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry/ Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry/ Corps
90th Chinese/C Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry/ Corps
57th Chinese/C Corps
16th Chinese/B Corps
90th Chinese/B Corps
77th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese/B Corps
4th Construction Regiment
59th Chinese/A Corps
30th Chinese/C Corps
67th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese/C Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry/ Corps
30th Chinese/B Corps
36th Chinese/B Corps
59th Chinese/B Corps
55th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese/A Corps
16th Chinese/A Corps
48th Chinese Corps
57th Chinese/B Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry/ Corps
92nd Chinese/B Corps
3rd Chinese/B Corps
30th Chinese/A Corps
3rd Chinese/C Corps
1st Chinese/A Corps
92nd Chinese/A Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry/ Corps
92nd Chinese/C Corps
36th Chinese/A Corps
16th Chinese/C Corps
59th Chinese/C Corps
4th Group Army
21st Group Army
33rd Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
5th War Area
22nd Group Army
2nd Group Army
56th AT Gun Regiment


Thats over 1200 IJA armor vehicles being turned back by 72 Chinese 37mm AT guns.

[JeffroK]

What do you mean, 72 Chinese AT Guns destroying 5 IJA Tanks!

It was a bad odds attack anyway, disablements could be slipped tracks, crews abandoning them in panic etc etc.

[crsutton]

Ok, ran some tests today. On my little test map in open terrain.

First let me say that AT guns do work. Perhaps not as effective as they should be but they are working.

All tests used the same Japanese tank regiment consisting of 20 type 95 tanks and 36 type 97 tanks. For my AT unit I took a Russian unit and gave it 32 57mm guns. Figured it would be a very good gun vs these types of tanks. Good range and velocity, this gun would have been very effective vs the thin skinned tanks.

First test was a straight tank vs AT gun attack. One deliberate attack and the tanks overran the guns without loss. Rule one, in the open At guns better have infantry support..

So I next paired the AT guns with a regiment sized Chinese unit. About 100 good order squads. I removed the three AT guns from the infantry unit so that they would have no organic guns. It took the Japanese tank unit about six turns to smash the AT guns and infantry unit and retreat them with no losses to the tanks. I then realized that I forgot to change the morale and experience of the units in the editor. The Japanese unit had about 75 exp. and 85 morale whereas the Russian AT gun was at 50 exp with 50 morale and the Chinese unit was at about "35" exp with 45 morale to start. Big mistake there.

So for the next test, I bumped both unit to 80 exp and 99 morale. Now, it was a different story. Five or six deliberate attacks and the Japanese tank unit just about broke all of its teeth. So there, AT guns had a big effect.

But what about the exp where you would expect to find your average Chinese unit. For the next test I switched the exp for both units to 45 but left morale at 99. Here is where the tests got interesting. It took about 20 rounds of combat but the tank unit eventually defeated the AT unit with infantry. The early battles were touch and go with the Japanese tank unit taking some serious losses. Over the course of about five attacks the Japanese unit was about 50% disabled with two or three tanks knocked out. Yet the AT unit and infantry unit were taking losses as well. For the next five turns the tank unit stayed at about half disabled while the disabled AT guns started to grow and the Infantry unit shrank to just a few good order squads. After about fifteen attacks all guns were out of action and virtually all of the squads in the Chinese unit disabled, while my tank unit had recovered all disabled and was only missing 4 tanks. I then noticed that my armor was at 85 disruption while the two defenders were only at "4" disruption in spite of having no functioning units. I rested the armor for two turns, set it on shock, and watched the enemy evaporate.

So, AT guns do work and have an effect. Probably should kill few more tanks but The presence of the AT unit with the Infantry probably doubled its life span. Given, a few positive factors-better exp, leader, terrain or just some decent rolls the AT/infantry combo could possibly defeated the tank unit.

More important, in an equal fight, it is very apparent to me how much both morale and experience matters. I will have to pay closer attention to that in my own games.

[castor troy]

guys, please don't forget that "vehicles" doesn't mean only tanks destroye. Most of the "vehicle" casualties are MOTORIZED SUPPORT.

[crsutton]

Yes, motorized support does seem to take a very large hit. This hurts the Allies more but the average Allied unit get more support anyways.

I refer you to my detailed drawing of the typical Allied armored attack submitted to this forum earlier...[;)]

[racndoc]

crsutton....thanx for spending the time to do some testing of the AT guns!

Im sure that you have had the same expereince that Ive had in China watching massed Japanese armor cut through entrenched Chinese infantry LCUs in good defensive terrain like a hot knife thru butter. The only 2 units at the start of the war that can even help to slow the Japanese armor down are the Chinese 56th and 57th AT Gun Regiments.

I now send every British AT gun LCU and all SWPAC AT gun LCUs to China as soon as they appear on the map. You dont need the AT gun LCUs in SWPAC, OZ or India since you have plenty of armored units there to deal with the fearsome IJA tankettes. Its really easy to send the AT guns into China from Ledo via transport AC.

Just to let you know....both of my Chinese AT gun regiments are at 50 exp and 99 morale. I put the best commander available in charge of each one.... the 56th has a 58 land exp leader and the 57th has a 52 exp leader.

[crsutton]

Good idea, I should check the leaders. Of course the same works for Allied armor vs Japanese infantry-especially after they flesh out with medium tanks, so paybacks are a bitch. I once hit a Japanese tank regiment with about three brigades of tanks and it simply evaporated in one shock attack. About what you would expect...

[Puhis]

Outside base hex these supporting units suffer because they can't build their own forts (unless they have engineers). Other units at the same hex help, but still supporting unit's forts lag behind infantry units with engineers.

I'm in a situation in Burma, where I have IJA division, SNLF unit and Arty unit defending non-base hex. Infantry division have level 3 forts, other units have level 1. Without that infantry division, SNLF unit and Arty regiment couldn't get any forts at all...