Withdrawl under beta 1.03

[Fred98]

Now using Beta 1.03.

This German unit should have withdrawn but it did not.

What is the reason that it did not withdraw?


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[Fred98]

The quality check came out at 96 v 40 and therefore failed the quality check. There is nothing that states that the quality check failed I had to look it up.


Paragraph 10.7
If Disruption is at level 3 or 4, withdrawal is automatic.
If Disruption is at level 1 or 2 a withdrawal check is taken. Failure = must withdraw

Q: Does that refer to the disruption level before or after the combat?

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[Obsolete]

I am rather quite tired at the moment so it's probably best for me not to get into things. However I understand your issue about sometimes being confused on the before or after combat issue, myself sometimes not sure.

I'll hit up some more testing on this if no one already knows the definite answere.

[sabre1]

Thanks Obsolete!

[sabre1]

OK, it's to quiet around here. Any news?

No comments about me making PBEM moves. [:'(][;)][:D]

[PirateJock]

Back from my hols and ready to play [:)]

Cheers

[Obsolete]

The quality check came out at 96 v 40 and therefore failed the quality check.

Well, if you look back at the textbox, it says W/D Check. Therefore, we are talking about the Withdrawal check, NOT the standard quality check. However, since they are so similar I can see why some people may use them interchangably here.

At Level 4-D you should be forced to expend ALL 15MPs while in ATT posture. So I'm not sure why you can't at least move toward the #7 position.

I do wish you had a save here.

Anyhow, I'll try to open up the Stolberg file next for some further testing, it could be an issue with terrain causing this. If not... then maybe somehow some E-ZoC is spilling out over into more hexes than it should.

Were you attacking, or defending when your unit got into a withdrawal stance?

[Obsolete]

Ahah! I'm not so sure I like the current changes (yet).



I ran up that same scenario for a little testing. Took the one Axis infantry and attacked in a manner I felt similar to what Big Joe did. Got level-4 disruption, and during the withdrawal phase I got to see the kind of retreat pattern.



Take a clear look here, since we can not stop withdrawing in the red zones, there is only one spot available for us to do so, which is two hexes North of the AT unit. However... in Joe's image there are some hexes blocked by E-ZoC which would restrict movement towards that one hex.

But HOWEVER AGAIN, there should STILL BE a possible path to get to that hex, so why there was no retreat is interesting.

Also, I'm not quite thrilled with how retreats are handled. If I want, I can currently just move (one hex at a time) my unit into say, the #9 hex, and its movement will be haulted despite having still 11 MPs left. Also, if I move to the #7 & #7 again, hexes, despite I should have still 9 MPs left, again the game will pin my unit there and decide there is no other possibility to move. Hmmm!

There are also some other issues there that make me think a bit...

[PirateJock]

I think what also adds some confusion is that in this example there is only 1 route for the unit to get to move exactly 15 MPs, i.e. get to the #0 hex. The hexes in the route being #12 to #8 to #4 to #0. (To move into a Wood hex costs 4 MPs). So all the extra hexes highlighted don't really add anything, apart from distracting information.

Saying that I'm not sure why in Joe's example, the unit can't withdraw as none of the hexes in the route are affected by an EZoC.

Cheers

[Obsolete]

The hexes in the route being #12 to #8 to #4 to #0. (To move into a Wood hex costs 4 MPs). So all the extra hexes highlighted don't really add anything, apart from distracting information.

One thing I'm not so sure I like about this over-lay, is say we move to the #4 in your sequence, then the #1 hex bordering it would also turn to a green highlight, giving the player an extra option (so to speak). I can see path choices confusing new players, but I'm not sure there is a simply way to improve that.

[Obsolete]

After doing a bit more investigative work, I think I know now why (or at least have a theory) as to why Joe's unit may not have retreated.

I loaded up the scenario in the editor, and added a few more units, placing them into the positions as in Joe's screen shot. I then changed the first turn initiative to axis.

Then, I selected the unit of interest to shift to withdraw during the movement phase.

As we can see, the presence of the enemy units actually blocks the northern retreat path to the hexes that we discussed earlier. Therefore, it is my theory that perhaps the engine thought since there is no legal hex to retreat to (that it thought was legal) it maybe skipped the whole retreat deal altogether?

Keep in mind, that while the current shot shows at least 2 hexes in green for retreating in the West, this is because I have 0 disruption. In Joe's scenario, he was so badly mauled up with a level-4 disruption, that he would be forced to expend ALL of his 15 MPs. Therefore, all the hexes would probably show up as shaded red.

Well, this is my theory and I'm sticking to it for now...

[PirateJock]

Interesting ... if that's the right word [;)]

Couple of observations ...

In your image showing 2 possible end hexes I wonder why you don't get that third hex to the right of the unit as an option? If the unit can move into the one on the left, why not on the right?

I wonder if the code to calculate final hex location on withdrawal for D4 units is for 15 MPs and not >= 15 MPs. In other words a unit can only withdraw to a hex if the total movement cost is exactly 15 MPs.

Cheers

[Obsolete]

I wonder if the code to calculate final hex location on withdrawal for D4 units is for 15 MPs and not >= 15 MPs.

I've been thinking about that too.

BTW, I did do some further examination. And I noticed when I moved an axis infantry down and placed it on top of the other axis infantry set to withdraw, but I instead use the new arrival to assault, something interesting happens. Even when I'm forced to withdraw due to the outcome of the battle, not only did my new arrival not get the option to withdraw, but my other unit at the bottom of the stack did not withdraw either, despite set to do so on the movement phase.

Well, that makes me have a new theory all over again, and I think this issue is isolated enough to take up with Cooney (I think!).

[Fred98]

Page 40, paragraph 3 of the manual:

"A withdrawing unit may always move one hex, regardless of the MPs required to enter that hex."

The game DOES NOT DO THAT and this is the reason we are all frustrated about withdrawal!

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[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Page 40, paragraph 3 of the manual:

"A withdrawing unit may always move one hex, regardless of the MPs required to enter that hex."

The game DOES NOT DO THAT and this is the reason we are all frustrated about withdrawal!

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Bump

[Fred98]

Bump