Is the winter a threat only for Germans?

[doomtrader]

In several posts, I have read questions about the 1941/42 winter. Generally when it comes, and how severe for Germans it will be.
There are already some modifiers implemented for winter, but I don't think that Russians are really so much better prepared for it.

So my question is does the winter so hardly struck only the Germans, or the Germans were the only unprepared side for such weather?

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

In several posts, I have read questions about the 1941/42 winter. Generally when it comes, and how severe for Germans it will be.
There are already some modifiers implemented for winter, but I don't think that Russians are really so much better prepared for it.

So my question is does the winter so hardly struck only the Germans, or the Germans were the only unprepared side for such weather?

As with almost everything, the answer is based on logistics.

The Germans actually had some fairly serviceable winter clothing available ... back in the Supply Depots, way to hell and gone away from where the front line was by the time winter hit.

But they had inadequate rail capacity to move it all forward in the amounts required and also keep their combat units supplied with useless things like ammunition and fuel [:D]

Rear area support troops suffered far less badly than the front line troops as, guess what, they raided supply trains headed for the front for useful things like winter clothing and food and left the useless stuff like ammo and, to a lesser extent, fuel, alone ... historically, the Deutsche Reichsbahn quickly stopped putting loading weighbills on the outside of the train cars so that marauding rear area types wouldn't be able to ID the cars with the food and warm clothes as easily [:-]

Sound like it was a stuffed situation?

Should!

Why were the Russians better off? Well, it's a military axiom that the further you get from your supply sources means the closer the enemy are to theirs ... so the Russians had an easier job of it and, of course, all the new Siberian Divisions were equipped for exactly the sort of climate they faced.

So, as usual, it's a supply thing.

Perhaps winter effects should have a more severe effect on limiting what units can or cannot do at each level of supply ... for the Germans, anyway ... that would be closer to reality.

Phil

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
In several posts, I have read questions about the 1941/42 winter. Generally when it comes, and how severe for Germans it will be.
There are already some modifiers implemented for winter, but I don't think that Russians are really so much better prepared for it.

So my question is does the winter so hardly struck only the Germans, or the Germans were the only unprepared side for such weather?

The Germans where well aware of what the Russian winter would mean, in letters and diaries, from private soldiers to senior officers, there are constant references to the coming winter and recalling what had happened to Napoleon's 1812 campaign. Hitler had consulted weather experts before the Kiev operation and had decided to proceed, as the mud period would occur in earlier in the South and it would be better to finish the elimination of the Soviet Kiev grouping, before the rains in that area. Therefore, even Hitler was not ignoring weather factors.

It had been said, during 'Barbarossa' planning, that the army could only be supplied as far as Smolensk, any further would then result in a supply shortage. When the decision was taken to launch Operation Typhoon towards Moscow, it became a make, or break, situation. To maintain the offensive so late in the year, priority had to be given to munitions and supplies, winter clothing stayed in the depots. On other fronts where the offensive was not forced so late, the German troops did not suffer so badly.

Units that are able to dig in, or in cities, and stay in position should not suffer as much effectiveness loss, as those that continue to move in snow conditions.

Perhaps there should be an event in October, 'Winter equipment or Munitions' and if the decision is 'winter equipment' then effectiveness stays higher, but attack odds are lowered in hexes with snow, if 'munitions' then attack odds remain higher at the cost of additional winter effectiveness loss.

I not sure if that makes sense, but depending on the player decision there should either be a survival, or offensive combat, effect, but you can't have both, at the same time, in the winter.

There is no doubt that there would still have been a penalty for both sides in the winter. The Germans may have brought forward winter clothing and equipment, but German lubricants were not effective at -20C and their winter clothing may not have been good enough. Their vehicles suffered in the summer and would still have suffered in the extreme winter conditions, however much winter equipment they had. There still has to be a significant winter weather penalty, particularly for the Germans, but the player should have some choice and not just have to blindly follow the historical path.

Hitlers 'no retreat' order may not have helped, or was kept in force longer than necessary, retreats still occurred and heavy equipment was still lost, but the casualties were probably worse than they might have been. When Model took over 9th Armee in February 1942, he insisted that the order be relaxed and was able to cut-off and destroy two Soviet armies. With more flexible tactics the Germans were able to fight on more even terms, even in the first winter.

The player must decide whether to keep units in place and dug-in, extra bonus if in cities, or whether there is a chance to strike out, as the Soviets are also suffering. The Siberian divisions should be comparatively better off in the winter and have a higher effectiveness, but no one can be immune from the Russian winter.[:)]

[RandomAttack]

Sounds like an elegant solution-- beans or bullets! I can see myself greedily looking East thinking "but I can make it, I can MAKE it". [:)]

[freeboy]

its a hard question too, do we want the game to model the actual conditions even if these conditions are a result of shortsidedness?
Can we re do history? how about this?
 
USSR did not have a sevear Stalin Purge, twenty Good Generals ar eavailable and the army is better prepared for war?
No Nazi Party, conquered countries yeild less initially and more over time, more manpower, less pp
Better jets sooner etc etc..
as the game has so much flex it is fun BUT we need tpo have some choices in multiplayer
I just went  to war in multi with Greece! lol but it was event

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: freeboy
its a hard question too, do we want the game to model the actual conditions even if these conditions are a result of shortsidedness?
Can we re do history? how about this?

USSR did not have a sevear Stalin Purge, twenty Good Generals ar eavailable and the army is better prepared for war?
No Nazi Party, conquered countries yeild less initially and more over time, more manpower, less pp
Better jets sooner etc etc..
as the game has so much flex it is fun BUT we need tpo have some choices in multiplayer
I just went  to war in multi with Greece! lol but it was event

A lot of the enjoyment of this game is being in situations which are not completely predictable. I didn't expect to have to deal with a Soviet invasion into Romania and Western Poland in 1940, whilst I was deeply involved in France. As Axis, in mid October I am racing the Soviets to the Ploesti oilfields, having sent armoured forces through Lvov to reach Romania. A failed coup in Hungary (bad diplomacy on my part) means that they have only just joined the Axis and I couldn't use a more direct route, unless I wanted to invade Hungary (decisions-decisions). The Romanian AI has been trying to keep the Soviets back and won some victories, but is being pushed back and is on the point of collapse.

I fought a holding action in the East and was just beginning to suffer significant casualties when France offered an armistice and I could start sending forces to Poland. I won the frontier battles, but the Soviet AI has taken up positions in the Stalin Line, which I am just closing up to, but now it's snowing, never expected to be pushing into Russia this late in the year. Even if I save the oilfields, there is not going to be much of the Romanian army left, so the rest of the Eastern Campaign is going to look very different. Meanwhile at sea and in North Africa .................

Where do you draw the line between plausibility and fantasy, who knows, but it's a good game, you can't use hindsight when this can happen. Considering the Western Allies were preparing an Anglo/French expeditionary force to help the Finns against the Soviet attack in the Winter War, imagine Britain and France at war with Germany and the USSR.

I don't think history was doomed to follow the course it did and insisting on sticking to a well known script would miss out on a lot of interesting, but still realistic, games. I would ask for as many reasonably plausible choices that the game can provide and let us make command decisions, not just follow the mistakes and well known strategies of the past.

[:)]

[StellarRat]

One has to bear in mind that as far as I know the Germans hadn't tested their equipment in extreme cold. So, from that aspect alone winter should cause more problems for Germany (at least the first winter.) I used to live in Alaska and even in these "modern" times winter can play hell with machines of all kinds. A "greenhorn" would have all kinds of problems until all the little details and workarounds are learned through experience.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

One has to bear in mind that as far as I know the Germans hadn't tested their equipment in extreme cold. So, from that aspect alone winter should cause more problems for Germany (at least the first winter.) I used to live in Alaska and even in these "modern" times winter can play hell with machines of all kinds. A "greenhorn" would have all kinds of problems until all the little details and workarounds are learned through experience.

Tell me about it.

Visited a friend in Edmonton, just after Xmas, many many years ago ... and wondered what the electrical wiring with the plug was coming out through the radiator grill at the front was for ...

[:D][:D][:D]

... needless to say, not a problem we have here in Oz!

(I believe the Germans had to get under their tanks/trucks with blowtorches half an hour or so before they wanted to start their engines to thaw out the sump oil during Russian winters [X(])

Phil

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
I believe the Germans had to get under their tanks/trucks with blowtorches half an hour or so before they wanted to start their engines to thaw out the sump oil during Russian winters

Phil

I think the main factor is that units, Axis, or Soviet, that are dug in, or in cities, should keep a higher strength and/or effectiveness than units which are moving, or in combat. Once you start using your supplies in movement and combat it is difficult to replenish in blizzard conditions and there is a much higher 'wastage' in men and equipment.[:)]

[aspqrz02]

That's definitely historical [&o]

IIRC some German commander made the point that he had to reserve a certain amount of his 88mm Ammo (I suspect he really meant "Infantry Gun" ammo, but was simplifying for whichever allied captor he was reporting to at war's end) every night after a day's advance (or retreat, of course) during the Russian winter so it could blast craters in the frozen ground so that his infantry could get under something vaguely resembling "cover" ...

But units in any sort of prepared fortification or in a town or city should definitely get significant benefit ... or reduced penalties, depending on how the game engine handles it ...

Phil

[freeboy]

Reading Glantz excellent account of  This front, there acually was ample  supplies of winter gear.. bbots coats etc.. but the supplies where not getting through.. again supplies are a major concern... in reality.. BUT this is a game.. when it becomes the war to get supplies I am gone.. have enough of that in other [:-]

[LiquidSky]

Exactly....too many people think that if only the Germans had their warm undies on, they could continue fighting like it was summer.

Truth is, there were just way too many things going wrong because of the unexpectedly harsh cold winter of 1941, completely foriegn to Western Europe.

The water boilers on trains would freeze. Or the pumping stations to supply them with new water.
Too cold to stand sentry duty away from a fixed position, or the snow is too deep...easily outflanked by sleds/wagons/ski/snowshoe troops.
Horses cant take the cold and die off, although using captured Russian steppe horses helps alieviate this.
Lubricants for weapons freeze...the enemy charges, you pull the trigger on your awesome MG40 to ...... nothing. Only way to know if it is going to work is to fire it.
Too keep vehicles from freezing solid, you keep them running...using up fuel. To light fires to keep warm, you burn fuel. Supply requirements just shot up.

And the sad truth is the Germans were a beat up tired army badly supplied because of the mud, before the winter hit. And if they werent wearing warm clothing, they would have died after a day of -30 degree weather, and not just gotten frostbite.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
Truth is, there were just way too many things going wrong because of the unexpectedly harsh cold winter of 1941, completely foriegn to Western Europe.

The harsh winter in Russia was not unexpected, there were plenty of warnings at all levels in the German military, 1940 had also been a hard winter, the BEF in France had difficulty in entrenching in the lines they had been allocated that winter and they weren't under attack.

I am all for as much choice as possible and I think I share freeboy's concern about too rigid games, but both supply and weather are important factors in WW2 and I don't see how that can be avoided. I don't want 'the German commanders didn't prepare so you are not allowed to prepare', but even with all the winter equipment that Germany could have provided, there would still have been a significant loss of effectiveness and the Soviets were not immune to the cold, they suffered too.

The guide should be, how did the Germans on the other fronts who had time to dig in and prepare, manage the weather ? [:)]

[freeboy]

perhaps make the Germans pay like 350 pp to winterize their troops, and reduce effectiveness..
Huge event effectiveness swings are not wanted by myself.. like the lets turn the sovs into level 0 zobies events at start of dow with germany... [:-]

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: freeboy
perhaps make the Germans pay like 350 pp to winterize their troops, and reduce effectiveness..
Huge event effectiveness swings are not wanted by myself.. like the lets turn the sovs into level 0 zobies events at start of dow with germany... [:-]

Well, I'm in Fall Gelb with a Soviet attack into Romania and Poland in turn 4, having finished France in August, I am fully involved on the East front and after a punishing holding action by weak defenders and successful frontier battles with reinforcements, am now entering winter. The pace has slowed down in the rain, recon shows that there is a lot more to come, with some big Soviet tank units about, as soon as I have rescued Romania, what next. This is one of the best games I have ever played, no more stale, this is the way to do Barbarossa, I have been dragged into Russia in September, who would have launched Barbarossa then.

I have no objection to providing choices, but don't want to take too much out, keep the options open, lots of options, we can all win here. [:)]

[2ndACR]

Don't have the game, but this argument looks familiar to WITE.

The Germans had enough full winter gear for 55 Divs in depots. I argued there that we should be allowed to spend AP's per div and remove them from the line for 1-2 turns to winterize them. That got poohed on.

Options and choices are what makes the greatest games. Very few want to be tied to history. There are a few in the WITE board, but I don't see many letting 6th Army get cut off and destroyed in 1942.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Don't have the game, but this argument looks familiar to WITE.

The Germans had enough full winter gear for 55 Divs in depots. I argued there that we should be allowed to spend AP's per div and remove them from the line for 1-2 turns to winterize them. That got poohed on.

Options and choices are what makes the greatest games. Very few want to be tied to history. There are a few in the WITE board, but I don't see many letting 6th Army get cut off and destroyed in 1942.

I have only just got started, but this game is full of options and it's fun. Hope it stays that way and I think it will, there should be something for everyone. [:)]

[doomtrader]

Can't promise we will do something with the winter gear for 1.01, but I can promise that we will think about some elegant solution (yeah, we can modify movement and fighting abilities in snow).

[2ndACR]

See, now this game moved up a little farther on my list. Just have to convince the "boss" I need the money.