Light AFVs

[Arimus]

Light AFV's seem to take a real beating and I was curious if vehicle size or speed is considered when resolving hits.

[Arjuna]

Yes the cross section ( and hence the dimensions ) of the vehicle is taken into account as is speed. But remember in most cases AFVs are rarely travelling very fast. Standard tactical move rate for AFVs in the open is 16 kph and this reduces rapidly in poor terrain. Moreover, all vehicles in a unit moving in formation will have their speed constrained by the other vehicles.

[Arimus]

So if I look at the estab of a us cav recon troop, it shows, M8's, M3's, trucks and jeeps. The mobility of the M8 is going to be the same as the trucks? There is no abstract "movement in the formation"?

[Arjuna]

Not sure I understand your question?

[wodin]

Arimus if vehicles where traveling at different speeds information they would no longer be in formation.

[Arimus]

An M8 armored car has better speed and mobility than a truck. Does the M8 sacrifice it's speed and mobility to stay in formation with the truck, thus making it an easier target?
Historically, armored cars and other recon vehicles used their speed and mobility to avoid contact and get out of trouble. But if recon units with trucks are using the speed and mobility of the truck, then aren't they handicapped?

It just seems to me that light AFV's like Armored Cars take a heavy losses and I was wondering if something like an M8 armored car is harder to hit than a truck because of it's mobility.

Ok, for example, a recon unit sets in a defensive position, the m8's and other light afv's take up positions in the front, the squads deploy from their transport and it is moved safely out of harms way (I'm assuming the truck class moves out of direct fire if it can because it suffers lower losses to direct fire). If that recon unit comes under fire, do the M8's and M3's just sit and slug it out or does the game assume they would make small movements within the defensive position, thus making them harder to hit.

When I was a tank platoon leader, we could set up to three firing positions within the same area covering the same fire zone. We could displace to a different firing position if needed. In game terms, my company's "counter" would not move, but the platoons and tanks could be very active.

[wodin]

As I said to be in formation means they are moving a a set speed otherwise it's not a formation if the M8 's a speeding off into the distance and your trucks are slowly moving along. Not sure I know whether your getting what I mean.

What your talking about now isn't a formation move but a defensive position which means I'm sure they are rated at their combat speed and move as you suggest they do. It's only in a formation move that I would have thought they will all move at a set speed and not their optimal individual speed as Dave said above

[Arimus]

Hmmm, maybe put a different way...

Did the mobility of an M8 increase its chance of survival in combat during WWII?
From what I have read on WWII, the answer is yes.

Does the mobility of an M8 increase its chance of survival in combat in BtfB?
From my experience playing the game, no it doesn't. But maybe I'm wrong.

Wodin, for the most part, AFV's like the old M8 to the modern M2 operate indepedantly from trucks and other soft vehicles. And I think the game reflects that by the lower number of soft skin casualties to direct fire. Don't think that because you see a game counter that all the vehicles and soldiers are lined up in formation like a civil war battlefield. Obvioulsy they can take casualties but I think there is some abstraction going on for playability.

[wodin]

yeah I understand that but Dave mentioned that if you have them in a formation move then they will all move at the same speed whether an M8 or a truck, which sounds like if you give a formation order it restricts the AFV\vehicles until I suppose the order is finished or abandoned, which then means it's a restriction of the game mechanics and I suppose we adjust our play accordingly, I understand where your coming from but I'm not sure the game is as flexible under certain situations as troops would be in real life. I would expect though if you move with attacks box ticked or assaulting in formation then small recon style or light AFV's should be speeding around the unit footprint and not restricted to the lowest speed vehicle, which is what your after and what I feel should be the case. Though again maybe they are not due to the formation code which Dave implies if so it does need some attention as it would appear moving into attack in formation we are in a Napoleonic situation which isn't right.

I would also expect the game to monitor the speed of units ta any given time and they be harder to hit the faster they go. If not then the game is more abstracted than I thought. Sometimes I find knowing to much about a games mechanics (Mr RockinHarry ) can take away the illusion of the game, especially if you find out the game is more abstracted than you thought. Sometimes Ignorance is bliss. Yet I still read these threads because I want it to be as complicated under the hood as I imagine it to be, and look for confirmation that this is the case.

Sorry for the ramble.

Just re read your last post. You say the game doesn't seem to take into account the mobility but it does simulate a lower number of soft skin casualties to direct fire..isn't then the game taking into account the mobility?

Touch confused. Oh by the way I'm enjoying the chat here and, I repeat, am not trying to be funny or argumentative, just interested in the game mechanics and what other people experience and their views.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: wodin

yeah I understand that but Dave mentioned that if you have them in a formation move then they will all move at the same speed whether an M8 or a truck, which sounds like if you give a formation order it restricts the AFV\vehicles until I suppose the order is finished or abandoned ...

Perhaps recon units should move in "probe" mode?
Would that put the faster AFVs up front and the slower, unarmored trucks in the rear where they belong?

[Arimus]

As an example...
I placed a recon company in a treeline overlooking a valley with defend orders, min agro/rof/losses. My intent was to spot the enemy but not engage and retreat if engaged. A pretty common activity for recon units I think...

The unit took losses before the withdraw command I gave it could be executed and went into retreat recovery mode. It then suffered additional casualties because it was still in view of the enemy and would not withdraw.
Eventually it went to route and route recovery. Looking at the casualties, it suffered 9 of 13 M8's and 4 of 4 M3's destroyed, but only 3 of the 24 or so soft skin vehicles were lost.
I realize there are allot of other factors involved, but it seems to me that realistically, when faced with a heavy threat, this recon unit would have taken advantage of the mobility of the M8's and moved out of harm's way on its own.

[Arimus]

Or in some abstract way, used the mobility of the M8's to change position within the company's "footprint" to minimize their exposure.

[Arjuna]

It seems to me that what you are talking about is more the behaviour of the unit rather than the vulnerability of its AFVs. I'll be the first to admit the modelling of recon in our engine needs more work. Ideally, we need a screen task that would see screening units behaving as you suggest. But to model this effectively we really need to model unit breakdown and reform so that recon companies can break down iunto platoons and cover the types of frontage that they did.

Let me ponder this some more.

[wodin]

Excellent stuff...Dave you keep pondering I'm sure it will result into another piece of genius.

It's superb when you know Panther are working away constantly trying to improve the game.

Sometimes when I read posts here I think a fair few people think the game is probably more hi fi than it actually is, which is all credit to Panther in away. I imagine that certain things aren't modeled in super fine detail and are abstracted instead. Though I also know that as long as Dave and the rest of the Panther crew are working away on future games more and more fine detail will be included.

[JeffroK]

I think you are expecting "Steel Panther" like results from a Coy level game.
If you drop the scale to individual AFV/Vehicles you can get the results you are talking about.
But in a scenario with 2-3 Divisions+ on each side you lose some detail, attempts can be made to model it but often are less than expectations.
 
Arjuna's screen task is a good idea but then we'll want firing by batteries or "only my 75mm Shermans fire".
 
 

[wodin]

JeffK, well said. Thats what I was trying to explain. The game has to be abstracted at some level and I think we expect everything to be taken into account donw to individual unit behaviour.

[Arimus]

I really don't expect, nor would I want to move individual vehicles in a game of this scale.
It just seemed to me that light afv's were taking a beating and wasn't sure why.

Given a platoon of M8's under fire from an advancing company of Panthers. Realistically, what would they do? Probably run or hide. They wouldn't last long if they slugged it out while waiting for the withdraw order would they? That's kind of what I see happening now.
This "run and hide" could be abstractly modeled thru a harder "to-hit" number and the company footprint wouldn't change. Here you assume the M8's are acting toward self preservation and moving around within the footprint to avoid fire.

[wodin]

Arimus you are right, but as Dave said at the moment the game isn't as detailed yet or has the function that makes this possible realistic or not. I never said we want to move individual units but we want individual units to be monitored by the tacai and to perform with as little abstraction as possible, however I think we have a fair bit of abstraction going on at the moment, well more than we realise at first sight. I expect behavior of the forces that make up a unit in certain respects all react in the same way in specific circumstances when say cohesion drops below a certain level then they will all react in the same way. Sorry having a hard time trying to explain what I mean.

I'm sure something will be done though as the series moves along.