Basic Chnia Strategy

[JohnDillworth]

Hi,I've always played as the allies against the AI with "Quite China" I want to play against the AI with China live for the first time. Whats my basic strategy there? First turn, first year?
thanks

[Cribtop]

I'm a JFB, but I can tell you that Chinese troops in the open melt under enemy air superiority and firepower superiority. Bad terrain is your friend.

China's biggest challenge is that it doesn't produce enough supply to support its army. Thus, be careful about expanding airfields as you can't afford it.

[Admiral Mitscher]

I think that China is all about terrain and forts, so I try to concentrate my Chinese armies in good defensive terrain. Also in cities behind river-lines with forts built-up, and you never-ever fight the Jap in the open. You also have to have little limited offensives that he hopefully reacts to, because if he concentrates his forces in China, you are doomed.

[spence]

As a limited offensive you might try to trap the garrison of Ichang.

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Mitscher

I think that China is all about terrain and forts, so I try to concentrate my Chinese armies in good defensive terrain. Also in cities behind river-lines with forts built-up, and you never-ever fight the Jap in the open. You also have to have little limited offensives that he hopefully reacts to, because if he concentrates his forces in China, you are doomed.

Against the AI you don't have to much to worry about, mass units together and defend with the max fort settings, forget about any offense until probably 1944, don't even bother trying to attack into taiwan or vietnam - it will trigger reinforcements.

Against the AI, you probably can take the offense in 43, PBEM opponent - forget it - mine is pretty much cleaning up China, he controls most of it and Chungking - whatever fighters it does have for defense, won't do anything to one Japanese fighter sweep.

I believe he last ran a few sweeps on 8/42 and totally wiped out what fighters I had on CAP.

I won't say my strategy openly, but I do plan to have China for some offensive fun around 44/45.

[JohnDillworth]

Thanks,  I am thinking of doing a PBM in the near future so I am going to need to know what China is all about

[pompack]

On 7dec41 the Chinese army totally sucks:
1. TOEs average around 30-40 percent
2. On average 30-40 percent of the troops you do have are damaged
3. Experience is generally in the 30s
4. Most of the leaders are worse than awful; you grow to appreciate finding a leader with at least one of leadership, inspiration or land skill is above 49

Now items 2,3,4 and to some extent 1 can ALL be solved given time.

1. you get 350 infantry replacements per month. In a couple of years that is over 8000 infantry squads plus supporting arms replacements. But you need supply to incorporate them into the units
2. IF you can manage to find a spot to park a corps in rest mode for a couple of months the units heal
3. IF you don't screw with the original objective you can get units up into the 41-45 range in 3-6 months (45 sounds bad but for a Chinese corps it is elite status)
4. At least political points are global and not subject to blockade so you can eventually spare a few to upgrade the commanders of units at key, threatened locations

The bottom line is that you need time. Never attack unless you have overwhelming superiority and a really good reason to attack (isolating and reducting Ichang certainly qualifies) since you can't afford either the supply (needed for replacements) or the additional losses. Never repair centers or factories since you can't afford the supply in the short term. Never upgrade airfields since you can't afford the supply. Fortify carefully: you need the forts to hold key points but you need supply for everythings else as well.

As a matter of preference, I buy out or disband the air units; if bought out (to SEAC usually) transfer them to India to train. It saves supply and until they are trained and re-equiped all they do is train the Japanese pilots who kill them.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Against the AI you don't have to much to worry about, mass units together and defend with the max fort settings, forget about any offense until probably 1944, don't even bother trying to attack into taiwan or vietnam - it will trigger reinforcements.

Against the AI, you probably can take the offense in 43, PBEM opponent - forget it - mine is pretty much cleaning up China, he controls most of it and Chungking - whatever fighters it does have for defense, won't do anything to one Japanese fighter sweep.

I believe he last ran a few sweeps on 8/42 and totally wiped out what fighters I had on CAP.

I won't say my strategy openly, but I do plan to have China for some offensive fun around 44/45.

I'm in the same boat. Japanese opponent all in on China, entire Japanese Army air committed to China and tons of armour. I can't hold anywhere even in rough terrain. I'm nuked from the air and adjusted AV when the Japanese troops arrive is a joke. My troops are so disorganized from weeks of air attack they fold against Japanese LCU's. March 42 and I see China falling by mid/late 1942. A smart/good Japanese PBEM opponent who goes all out for China will get it, no matter what the Allies do in my opinion. Japanese air power is the key, they can bomb as low as 6k and not suffer a single FLAK loss from putrid Chinese AA. This is also Scenario 2 so that doesn't help either.

[Treetop64]

In a word, defense.

For the first year or so, organize your forces and pull them back to tenable positions (rough terrain along good lines of communication [roads and rail]) until your forces are relatively well reconstituted and experienced, and you accumulate enough supplies to begin supporting large-scale offensives.

[GreyJoy]

In my very limited experience the allies cannot hope to stop the tide in china if japan overcommits here. 300 bonbers and 200 zeros, along with the use of the southern area army can march all the way to chungking in 3 months...

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Against the AI you don't have to much to worry about, mass units together and defend with the max fort settings, forget about any offense until probably 1944, don't even bother trying to attack into taiwan or vietnam - it will trigger reinforcements.

Against the AI, you probably can take the offense in 43, PBEM opponent - forget it - mine is pretty much cleaning up China, he controls most of it and Chungking - whatever fighters it does have for defense, won't do anything to one Japanese fighter sweep.

I believe he last ran a few sweeps on 8/42 and totally wiped out what fighters I had on CAP.

I won't say my strategy openly, but I do plan to have China for some offensive fun around 44/45.

I'm in the same boat. Japanese opponent all in on China, entire Japanese Army air committed to China and tons of armour. I can't hold anywhere even in rough terrain. I'm nuked from the air and adjusted AV when the Japanese troops arrive is a joke. My troops are so disorganized from weeks of air attack they fold against Japanese LCU's. March 42 and I see China falling by mid/late 1942. A smart/good Japanese PBEM opponent who goes all out for China will get it, no matter what the Allies do in my opinion. Japanese air power is the key, they can bomb as low as 6k and not suffer a single FLAK loss from putrid Chinese AA. This is also Scenario 2 so that doesn't help either.

+1

[dr.hal]

From reading the above (Paul don't read any more of this input as it is part of my tactics and you are not allowed to know!!!)[:D], I think it should be clear that your defense depends upon the Japanese offense. If the Japs commit a LOT of resources to China, especially air assets, then you really are in trouble. However if not, then you have a chance to be active and upon occasion take the offense. Your air assets are very limited. Concentrate them if the Japanese player allows you the time. Give them LOTS of training AND if an opportunity presents itself, put them into combat in which they might survive. If an enemy LCU presents itself without air cover, BOMB the heck out of it (thus getting experience). If your fighters can go up against Japan's weak fighter types (Nate) then have at it...keep at it (as some of your a/c have armor IIRC and a Nate, or even an Oscar would have difficulty bringing you down). Also CONSOLIDATE your air units up to full strength. At the start there are 3 to 4 a/c per unit, and a lot of units. Disband a unit when in the same airfield so that one unit moves into the other. Why you might ask? Simple, coordination problems are eliminated when taking to the air and there is strength in numbers. Right now in my PBEM game (April '42) I have a strong Chinese air force (albeit very small) with one ace pilot and a few others coming close. If used wisely this air force can have an impact.

[Misconduct]

I think one of the only really good moves I can think of for the Chinese if put on offense, is try to reclaim one of the costal bases like Bangkok - this way down the road if you can get close enough to resupply it, it would help tremendously.

In theory its a great idea, but if you are close enough to bring transports, the war will likely be over soon

[HansBolter]

Guys, he's playing the AI.

The Chinese commanded by an actual brain can kick the AIs butt up one side and down the other in China even in the the biggest JFB wetdream sceanrio in existence: Ironman Japan v3.

take a look at this screenshot from my latest Ironman game:






Hankow fell three turns earlier. The remnants of the Hankow garrison (22 LCUs) are one hex east of Hankow and about to get their butts kicked again.

"Forget about any offense until '44" aye?

Against the AI start kicking it's butt IMMEDIATELY and never let up.

[crsutton]

Playing the AI I don't think would be a problem but vs a human who knows his stuff then you are in trouble. This is especially so if you give the Japanese player PDU and scen #2 (frequently what is played). The Japanese player can and should make a massive commitment to China and even the best Allied play probably will not hold them off much later than 1944 or so. The loss of China gives the Japanese player a lot of options. I think I am as good a fighter on the ground as any Allied player and in my campaign 5/44 I hold only Lanchow and surrounding are and Paoshan and one other city West of Kummin.

So I would, run for good terrain. Fight and delay as much as you can and always keep an eye on a long march to the West to set up your Alamo in the West to prevent a Japanese move into Burma. Defend Chungking as long as possible but you want to make sure that the bulk of your surviving army can still march West. Do this and you should survive with some Chinese forces but you will lose Chungking for sure. Like I say, I don't think it can be prevented in scen #2 and will be tough in scen #1.

The one thing you don't want is a victorious IJA marching back into Burma from China in 1944..That should always dictate your play.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Thanks,  I am thinking of doing a PBM in the near future so I am going to need to know what China is all about

Hans,

I think we understood he is playing an AI game. Many of us are responding to his second post stating he'd like information on China and what problems he may face tackling a human opponent. [8D]

[Yaab]

First turn?

I would try to understand the Chinese army structure and sort out the garrisons in China. You can garrison with smaller forces and release bigger units for the front.

I would try to understand Chinese infantry corps' TOEs ( some are standard, others are light, some are US Equipped). Some of them may have additional devices ( i.e. in DaBigBabes scen 28, 18th and 74th Chinese Corps start with 830 support squads, almost 200 more then their TOE number, which makes them semi-commando units who do not have to look for HQs for additional support)

I would try to prioritise replacements ( I am looking at you Kunming BF and your measly aviation support!).

Whatever you do, I would write down your findings for future reference in some document. I have 8 different Word documents for the China theatre in case I have to setup the first turn again. I would LOATH to try to understand the China theatre AGAIN from the scratch.

[Shark7]

As a JFB I can tell you what I do against an active China.

My first priority is to pull back from strategically unimportant bases, or bases that can be easily surrounded (Ichang is a great example of a base I abandon). This has the duel effect of strengthening places I want to keep and shortening my supply lines.

Secondly I decide what areas I deem important for capture and begin the troop and supply build ups to take those objectives. Strategic value (which does not always mean resources) are taken into consideration...being able to cut off and destroy a large stack of Chinese units is always a plus, the Chinese will never have enough supply to rebuild them.

So from my point of view, playing as allies you will want to prevent me from doing what I do as japan.

Pick your battles is the main thing...don't defend something that is too costly too defend or of little strategic value to you. Don't over-extend your supply lines, as you have precious little in the china theatre as allies. As others have said, utilize terrain to build a good defensive line...remember heavy jungle is a great place to defend, hard to dislodge the enemy from it...you don't have to stack everything in cities, a single division in the jungle can hold 3 attacking divisions for a good long while.

Just my thoughts.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

As a JFB I can tell you what I do against an active China.

My first priority is to pull back from strategically unimportant bases, or bases that can be easily surrounded (Ichang is a great example of a base I abandon). This has the duel effect of strengthening places I want to keep and shortening my supply lines.

Secondly I decide what areas I deem important for capture and begin the troop and supply build ups to take those objectives. Strategic value (which does not always mean resources) are taken into consideration...being able to cut off and destroy a large stack of Chinese units is always a plus, the Chinese will never have enough supply to rebuild them.

So from my point of view, playing as allies you will want to prevent me from doing what I do as japan.

Pick your battles is the main thing...don't defend something that is too costly too defend or of little strategic value to you. Don't over-extend your supply lines, as you have precious little in the china theatre as allies. As others have said, utilize terrain to build a good defensive line...remember heavy jungle is a great place to defend, hard to dislodge the enemy from it...you don't have to stack everything in cities, a single division in the jungle can hold 3 attacking divisions for a good long while.

Just my thoughts.

Have to disagree here. Until you take Chungking any Chinese unit destroyed comes back at 1/3 OOB strength. For many Chinese units this means they are actually coming back into play stronger than when they were eliminated. The correct play is to grind down Chinese units to nothing and then push them out of the way. Just keep grinding to destroy the Chinese units. It is ironic that while supply plays no role in destroyed Chinese units returning, the shortage of supply makes it virtually impossible to rebuild units that have been shattered but not destroyed. The key is to take Chungking. Once you do that, it is very difficult for the Allied player to recover and you will be pretty safe in China for the rest of the war.

As the Allies, I found that the only way to rebuild any Chinese unit was to move them to India-a slow process. My opponent just ground me down until I fell apart. Never allow the Chinese the chance to recover a destroyed unit if you can.

[Empire101]

For Christ Sake... my brother could read ALL of this!!!

This thread should be marked TOP SECRET ( JFB's ONLY), and locked[:D]