GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (Ketza Welcome)

[76mm]

Thanks for the tip; in November of 1943, I presume? I've got more than 4000 t34/76s in my pool, not sure how to put them to work...

This spring I am focused on creating rifle corps, pioneer SUs, independent tank SUs, and arty/rockets divs, which will hopefully allow me to push him out of his forts in early summer. After that I will start to create more tank corps, which should allow them to man-up by the fall. Hopefully by fall/winter they will be able to participate in some breakthrough/penetration actions.

I am still about 1/3 short on vehicles, the gap does not seem to be closing, so I am concerned about building many tank corps right now.

Also, one of my ArtDivs has converted into a Guards Breakthrough ArtDiv, but looking at the OOB it seems to be mainly 76mm guns and 120mm mortars--why is it a good thing to have such light guns in an art div? I presume IRL they were deployed in a direct-fire role, but I don't think it will make any difference in the game (moreover they are always deployed one hex back).

[M60A3TTS]

BAD should be 176 guns with 122mm or better, 144 of the 120mm mortars and 72 of the small field guns. Lighter guns generally have a more rapid rate of fire since the shells are lighter and easier to handle, so more shells hitting bad guys. Granted if the bad guys are dug in, lesser impact.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Also, one of my ArtDivs has converted into a Guards Breakthrough ArtDiv, but looking at the OOB it seems to be mainly 76mm guns and 120mm mortars--why is it a good thing to have such light guns in an art div? I presume IRL they were deployed in a direct-fire role, but I don't think it will make any difference in the game (moreover they are always deployed one hex back).

That's interesting. One would certainly suppose that "Breakthrough Artillery" would mean huge amounts of 152mm howitzers and rocket artillery.

Regarding their impact: they'll have. Arty on-map units are a bit like offensive reserves, with the difference that they'll always participate on combat, provided you selected them and have enough MP's. Or so I gather from the Gameplay note on the manual (15.2.2):

The artillery combat units are not actually firing from twenty miles away; the ability to add artillery combat units two hexes from the battle is an abstraction representing the massing of artillery for an intense pre-attack bombardment and the actual firing can take place at ranges as low as 1000 yards.

[76mm]

BG, thanks for the quote from the manual; it is probably time that I read it again...

Yeah, I got excited when it was a "Breakthrough" ArtDiv and expected lots of big guns, but found otherwise. Oh well, I'll be building some Rocket divisions next turn, they should pick up the slack. Meanwhile, two of my five existing ArtDivs have upgraded to guards status.

[76mm]

Haven't posted in ages, the game has been going very slowly over the holidays, and there have not been many exciting developments.

That said, we'd reached July 1943, and the Red Army is finally picking up a little steam.

North of Kursk things have been very quiet (other than a pocket Ketza created in the far north several turns ago, I'm sure he shows it in his AAR. Whoopee. If he wants to send another panzer army up there to encircle some rifle divs in the swamps, god bless him. He still has a few SS mech divs up there, not sure if it is the best place for them...

Here are screenshots from Kursk to Kharkov, and from Kharkov to Stalino:



Bascially I am slowly pushing him back in this area. Note the carpet like formations I've been forced to adopt: due to Ketza's favorite tactic of slicing in, encircling an army or two, killing it, and withdrawing, in this area, where I have the cream of the Red Army, a couple of dozen Guards rifle corps, I cannot allow that to happen...

So every turn I move some corps forward, attack, and then back some of them back off of the front line. A few hexes back I have numerous pocket-busting tank corps, and an entire front (the North Caucuses) is in reserve in this area, with its armies dispatched to wherever looks most threatened. It is obviously a slow, tedious process but so far has prevented any serious encirclements for the last several months, which vs Ketza is doing pretty good in my book. Although he now has panzer concentrations near Kursk and Kharkov, so it will be interesting to see what he tries to do with them.

I now have three assualt fronts, deployed roughly from Kursk to Kharkov, each of them consisting of rifle corps and guards rifle corp, each stuffed with SU, and each front with 4-6 arty divs. These units can now dislodge most German stacks, but I still have to use 2-3 stacks and arty divs for any hope of success.

I just updated to the latest patch, and the effectiveness of German reserves seems much much higher. I've seen one panzer div react as reserve three times in one turn, and two divs (one panzer, one mech) react as reserve in a single battle. Makes things much tougher...

General plan is to keep pressing forward, and to increase pressure on the south, so that everything from Kursk to the Sea of Azov is gradually pushed back.

[76mm]

Would like advice from the brain trust...

Here is the currently active part of my front, stretching from north of Kursk to south of Kharkov:


By active I mean that I am attacking every turn, generally succesfully. Elsewhere, other than an odd attack here and the, the front is completely static, and has been for over a year. As a result, much of the front is just buried in German fortifications.

I'm thinking that the best way to proceed is to keep pushing and pushing and pushing in the active sector. That's where my best troops are, that's where his forts have been most stretched. The theory is that if he is pushed back far enough in this sector, he will be forced to pull back across the front, and I won't have to batter through the massive forts.

The obvious risk with this approach is that it lengthens and thins out my line, making me more vulnerable to Ketza's encirclements.

The alternative approach is to gradually keep reinforcing the shoulders of the active zone and gradually widen it. But the prospect of battering through forts across the entire front is rather daunting.

Ultimately, since I can create more units and he can't, I expect that a longer front is to my advantage. I've got about 8.1 million men now, and almost 2 million more in the pool, so I should have enough men, if I am careful.

What do you all think?

[Q-Ball]

I would keep going in this sector. Shifting troops would cost time and APs, and why fight in terrain that is more favorable to the defense?

Don't worry about long lines. In fact, long lines will favor you more than him at this point. He can't afford more frontage, you have plenty of Rifle divisions. In quiet sectors, a 2-deep line of Rifle units should be plenty; he can attack and push a single Rifle division on the front line, but so what? Losses in a straight push are 3-1 in favor of Germans, which favors you anyway.

I would focus everyone on a single point, and try to get it to the point that you are moving him back faster than he can entrench. At that point, he'll start pulling back all over, just to avoid flank problems.

Pushing on Poltava is a good line of attack; he'll have to pull back to D-town anyway with much more of that, and it doesn't look like he has tons of forts in that direction

That's my 2 rubles

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
In quiet sectors, a 2-deep line of Rifle units should be plenty; he can attack and push a single Rifle division on the front line, but so what? Losses in a straight push are 3-1 in favor of Germans, which favors you anyway.

Well, generally I agree with you, and that is why I've favored that approach. But I think the statement above is a bit optimistic, as with a thin line it will be simple for him to swoop in and encircle an army or two, if he feels able to transfer a few panzer divisions to one of these quiet sectors for a few turns. Ketza has done that recently near the Finnish border of all places...

But I think the best defense against this is to keep stretching his line that it becomes harder and harder for him to man it, and he cannot pull the panzers without fearing the consequences in the main sector. But for this I need a "deep" threat, not just pushing him back hex by hex...

And then there is the fact that in a pinch, he should be able to man a longer line by thinning his troops manning the level-4 forts in the quiet sectors and redeploying them to the active sector.

Anyway, I still find this game rather interesting and hope that it will continue; it is far from over in my view.

[76mm]

Another question: has anyone tried creating an army consisting solely of ArtDivs? I have a couple of empty Stavka army HQs lying around, and was thinking it might be handy to have 6-8 ArtDivs under one of these army HQs to throw at particulary stubborn defenses for a couple of turns, and then move on to the next mission.

I currenty have a couple of ArtDivs under Stavka command, but don't think that they will get adequate ammo, etc. directly under Stavka, so am leaning toward putting them under a Stavka army. Under this plan, other than these ArtArmies, only my assault fronts and a couple of designated reserve armies will have ArtDivs assigned to them.

[Tarhunnas]

I agree with Q-Ball. Keep pushing west and southwest from the Kursk - Belgorod area. It looks like you have a pretty broad and shallow bulge there, and provided you have the reserves to stave off any attempts to cut off the salient, that seems the best course. Also, I would try to make as many attacks as possible all along the front to grind the Germans down. With 8.2 million men, you should be able to afford some wastage.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Another question: has anyone tried creating an army consisting solely of ArtDivs? I have a couple of empty Stavka army HQs lying around, and was thinking it might be handy to have 6-8 ArtDivs under one of these army HQs to throw at particulary stubborn defenses for a couple of turns, and then move on to the next mission.

I currenty have a couple of ArtDivs under Stavka command, but don't think that they will get adequate ammo, etc. directly under Stavka, so am leaning toward putting them under a Stavka army. Under this plan, other than these ArtArmies, only my assault fronts and a couple of designated reserve armies will have ArtDivs assigned to them.

It's worth trying this out. Definitely shouldn't keep them under STAVKA command directly, as it ceases to have much influence on leadership rolls past 1941. An army at least has a chance to pass its admin rolls.

You'll still take a hefty combat penalty doing this, though, as opposed to attachments at the front or lower level. My own view is to directly attachment to normal armies as much as possible. They are fairly cheap to reassign being divisions, so if the main offensive effort switches you're not stuck. (Unlike with corps.) You can reassign virtually the entire park in a single turn if need be, assuming a historical sized artillery park.

You really need to mass and keep pounding on a single part of the front, and take risks elsewhere. Rifle corps in particular. I would, if anything, perhaps leave some mobile corps in deep reserve and near or on rail lines to react to German moves. (I think it's a good idea in general to keep the German guessing as to your mobile commitments, anyways from 43 on. Keep something in the kitty.) But so far as cracking a fort line goes, you must mass the rifle corps and artillery divisions and attack in echelon. You're not sufficiently massed to do this imo based on the screenshots. Don't spread out the grunts evenly throughout the front line. If the German wants to take some shots somewhere, let him do so, and counterattack with mobile reserves, which are in any event of limited use in grinding through a fort line. These can be spread out. The rifle corps and arty must be concentrated.

There's too much fear of the panzers out there. If they want to come out and play in the open, so much the better.

[Flaviusx]

Just want to add: the reason I am so fanatical about this concentration of rifle corps is because you absolutely must have a follow on force in order to force the pace.

Even if they don't have enough MPs to move into newly cleared hexes and launch a second attack (this is the ideal outcome of echelon tactics) they can at least march in there and occupy the hex.

Giggle at the German while he decides what to do about 3 rifle corps in this newly won territory. Does he try to dislodge them? No problem, even if he succeeds, the butcher's bill will be high for him. Does he leave them alone? Great. These guys are ready to attack on the next turn; the guys who cleared the hex previously will be the new reserve and get a chance to refresh themselves.

So even if the second echelon can't move and attack, it is very much worth piling on deep.

Nobody is doing this. Nobody. It's not enough to simply have enough rifle corps to mass on the front line. You must indeed have more than this to really get things moving.

Instead people are trying to use mobile units to march into this newly won ground. And they of course get slaughtered on the German turn. Don't commit them until you can bust a real hole for them to pour through. Mech corps can kind of sort of hold ground, but even so. The mobile corps can assist in echelon attacks, but so long as the fort line remains unbreached, don't try to occupy newly won ground with them. That's what the second rifle corps echelon is for.

Meanwhile, the mobile corps pull double duty here in defense by making the German think twice about attacking somewhere. If the panzers want to get frisky, your mobile units can meet them on even terms outside their forts. Let him come if he dares.

[76mm]

Flavius, thanks for the comments, but I really don't think that I can afford to keep all of my rifle corps stacked three high on the front line--it would be too easy for Ketza to cut out 2-3 hexes full of guards rifle corps and then kill them the next turn--I simply can't afford to let that happen.

My approach is more conservative, but allows me to have units in the second and third hexes digging in, and then concentrating for the attack before moving back a hex or two after the attack. To the maximum extent possible, I also agree that it is critical to occupy (with a rifle corps or div) any hex which has been succesfully attacked. I keep my tank corps 3-4 hexes back, bring them forward for some attacks, and then move them back again. Some of them are getting pretty strong...

I think I will create an ArtArmy and see how it goes. I recognize that I will suffer some penalties, but on the other hand with 8 ArtDivs participating in an attack a certain amount of penalty will probably not hurt much. Moreover, in many parts of the front, I would not be able to attach several ArtDivs to another army or front without overloading it, which would lead to penalties of its own.

[Flaviusx]

Sigh.

This is what your mobile reserves are for. To deal with German attempts to do such things.

Panzers are totally vulnerable to counterattack in the open. Good luck trying to keep a pocket closed when twenty or so mobile corps converge on the panzers. If he wants to try his hand at a meeting engagement in post 43 conditions, let him do so.

More people need to play the 43 scenario: this is very instructive in showing the dynamic involved here. It is indeed very difficult at this stage in the game for the German to pull off major encirclements given the size and strength of the Soviet mobile force.

Furthermore, I'm not advocating piling deep everywhere. That's of course impossible. Pick a good sector of the front and give it full attention. In your situation, I would make the area near Kharkov my main effort. So strip down the stuff west of Kursk and reinforce the southern push. You have too much by Kursk for mere defense, and not enough for offense, nor is the terrain as favorable. So economize there.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Good luck trying to keep a pocket closed when twenty or so mobile corps converge on the panzers. If he wants to try his hand at a meeting engagement in post 43 conditions, let him do so...It is indeed very difficult at this stage in the game for the German to pull off major encirclements given the size and strength of the Soviet mobile force.
*****************
So strip down the stuff west of Kursk and reinforce the southern push. You have too much by Kursk for mere defense, and not enough for offense, nor is the terrain as favorable. So economize there.

heh heh sorry for the panzerphobia, but I've been stung more than once...

While I completely agree that a "major encirclement" would be difficult for him, the problem is I think that having 2-3 hexes surrounded with a solid ring is not out of the question at all, and if each of those hexes contained 3 guards rifle corps, it could be a major disaster. And my current density of mobile units would not allow me to whistle up enough of them to guarantee breaking the ring. If the corps could hold for two turns this risk would virtually disappear, but under current encirclement rules they would almost certainly be dead in one turn. Anyway, I acknowledge your point and will try to gradually shed my panzerphobia, especially once his panzer divs are worn down a bit more (currently he has around 6500 tanks, which I think is quite high for this point of the war).

Also, I guess the CVs are not visible in the screenie, but in recent turns I have generally been successful in attacking all along the front from Kursk to Kharkov (his troops and forts are weaker near Kursk). That said, I agree that my assualt fronts are getting spread a little thin and need to reconcentrate them toward the center of the growing bulge.

[Baelfiin]

Its hard to shed panzerphobia

Getting pocket killed late 42 43+ sucks 8(

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Just want to add: the reason I am so fanatical about this concentration of rifle corps is because you absolutely must have a follow on force in order to force the pace.

Even if they don't have enough MPs to move into newly cleared hexes and launch a second attack (this is the ideal outcome of echelon tactics) they can at least march in there and occupy the hex.

Giggle at the German while he decides what to do about 3 rifle corps in this newly won territory. Does he try to dislodge them? No problem, even if he succeeds, the butcher's bill will be high for him. Does he leave them alone? Great. These guys are ready to attack on the next turn; the guys who cleared the hex previously will be the new reserve and get a chance to refresh themselves.

So even if the second echelon can't move and attack, it is very much worth piling on deep.

Nobody is doing this. Nobody. It's not enough to simply have enough rifle corps to mass on the front line. You must indeed have more than this to really get things moving.

Instead people are trying to use mobile units to march into this newly won ground. And they of course get slaughtered on the German turn. Don't commit them until you can bust a real hole for them to pour through. Mech corps can kind of sort of hold ground, but even so. The mobile corps can assist in echelon attacks, but so long as the fort line remains unbreached, don't try to occupy newly won ground with them. That's what the second rifle corps echelon is for.

Meanwhile, the mobile corps pull double duty here in defense by making the German think twice about attacking somewhere. If the panzers want to get frisky, your mobile units can meet them on even terms outside their forts. Let him come if he dares.

Some good advice I think FLavius. Most games should have soviets with enough toys to do this in summer 43 ish you think?

[76mm]

No reason to post another screen shot, more of the same. I am concentrating the spearhead more, as Flavius had suggested, and sending reinforcements to the slowly growing bulge, so that I can man the extending line.

One question: a few turns ago, I think after one of the recent patches, it seems like German reserves have become much more effective, has anyone else noticed this? This is realistic enough I guess, although I have a few concerns:
1) Last turn, one PD was committed as reserve 3 (!) times, which seems a bit generous to me, especially since if this was in real life, I would presumably have conducted the three attacks simultaneously to prevent just this kind of problem--the PD would only have been able to react to one attack, not all three. This is a rather significant disadvantage for the Sovs.

2) A couple of times, more than one German division have reacted as reserve. I can't really call this unrealistic I guess, but it screw can screw up an attack!

3) My biggest problem with how reserves work is that they generally only seem to be committed when their participation will turn the battle from a loss to a win. I guess the computer does not commit them if the odds are too far in the Sov's favor. While this concept makes sense, the computer seems a little too smart about when to commit or not in my view--about nine times out of ten, when reserves are committed, I lose, because the battles in which they are committed are the close ones. In ones where I would win whether or not reserves are commited or not, I think I have only seen reserves committed once or twice. I understand that this is exactly what commanders do when trying to decide whether to commit reserves, but since they usually don't know exactly what they are up against, the decision-making process would seem more prone to error than I am seeing in the game.

I guess I'll gradually figure out some countermeasures, but so far these German reserves are pretty pesky!

For the first time since I don't know when, I think I've located all of his PDs, and the good news is that most of them are on the front line, where I can start grinding them up.

[karonagames]

1) Last turn, one PD was committed as reserve 3 (!) times, which seems a bit generous to me, especially since if this was in real life, I would presumably have conducted the three attacks simultaneously to prevent just this kind of problem--the PD would only have been able to react to one attack, not all three. This is a rather significant disadvantage for the Sovs.

3 reserve commitments is just within Gary's variabilty potential, I'm guessing that the PD, had 42+ MPs with low fatigue and plenty of gas, was close to the front, and the reserve commitments were fairly close together, and the leader in charge had an initiative rating of 8+.

Reserve is a very strong weapon in the axis defence plans for 1943 onwards. I try to make sure that at least 3 mech/arm divisions are in reserve range of every hex of the front line with leaders with an initiative rating of 7+, but this is hard to achieve. Reserve mode was supposed to be the counterbalance to +1, but with +1 gone, reserves are more likely to mess up soviet attacks.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Reserve mode was supposed to be the counterbalance to +1, but with +1 gone, reserves are more likely to mess up soviet attacks.

That's for sure. Actually I think it is a pretty good mechanism, but right now I think it works a little too well, for the reasons described above. From my experience, there are either no reserve commitments in an area or several, presumably for the reasons you describe.