MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)

[composer99]

March/April weather is a crap shoot.

Personally I would make the Axis go first if I win initiative as the Allies in March/April.

Sure, they might roll really high (esp. with a +2 weather mod) to start the turn off but I think you need an 8 or higher to get fine weather in the Arctic, and once the modifier goes away the Arctic weather (where most of the USSR is except for the Caucasus and southern Ukraine) will most likely go bad again.

Better to have the strong initiative for the two summer turns.

Edit: Also, I would not ask for a re-roll as the Allies if the Axis wins, for the reasons posted above.

[Orm]

I would go first as Allies in Mar/Apr but I would not make a reroll to do so.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

[Centuur]

Well. It looks like Composer99 and I do not agree on the USSR setup. I wouldn't want to defend Odessa, since the USSR is short of units. Odessa can be kept in check by using three lousy units from German aligned minors, without slowing German movements at all. Sure, the Germans need to capture Odessa in time, but it's also the place von Manstein can capture while moving with newly build units later in the game). Same goes for Sevastopol. I bypass those cities by the Germans and kill them later. In the meantime, Hungarians or Rumanians can screen those places...

A hero city should contribute to the defense of the USSR. Odessa doesn't qualify. Kiev and Dnjepropretovsk do, as does Vitebsk, Minsk and Pskov. But not Odessa. Chisinau you can debate about, since you need to put units in there to get the Odessa factory out of the city, but otherwise I think it is better to start defending with the better units at the Dnjepr in the south. Sure, you can use some units to slow the Germans down to get there, however: the USSR is short on units, because it has to prepare for a Persian invasion in early 1941. And that's pretty early in the game than usual.

Also: as Germany, I wouldn't wait to attack the soviets until M/J. I would attack at the first possibility I would get. Which is the first snow or better weather impulse in M/A. I'm going to need time to move through empty territory and even if the Russians had those speed bumps in those cities, I would attack in M/A and clear those speed bumps in Eastern Poland. I don't wait for fine weather with a USSR slowly withdrawing from the border. That's playing into the USSR hands...
Yes, the USSR could put some units in those cities in Eastern Poland you mentioned. But they are going to get killed in the first impulse, without contributing anything. They won't even slow the German advance down at all. If you defend in depth, the Germans might find the airforce in the wrong place (to far from the front after the initial ground strikes). That's what I like to see as the USSR. Stuka's and Me 109 four or five hexes behind the attacking units. And the USSR has a nice airforce and will then get the opportunity to use it. Nothing better than to ground strike the advancing German armor stacks if the FTR's aren't able to cover them. Sure, the Russians won't kill them, but immobilizing them or the HQ's which have reorganised them is the best way to slow the German advance. Those TB's have such a nice long range...

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

[Red Prince]

To respond to the several posts above:

composer99's long and very useful post . . . I ran out of units about halfway through [:)] But the Milita are on the way. I've got the Baltic States already almost set as you suggest, as well as the area through to Minsk. I finally got a speed bump into Lvov, but I'm not sure where I'm going to find one to put in Brest-Litovsk, assuming I've got the time to do it. I don't know how much of the rest I can actually get done, but I'm going to try most of it. First priority next Soviet impulse, though (if not at war), is to spend my moves in Persia. Nobody is properly positioned in the mountains yet, and I am still short a unit or two.

Centuur's concerns about Chisinau . . . it all depends on when the attack comes. Right now I have nobody to put there, and if I "shorten" either of the two stacks in front of it, Odessa is no longer screened safely. Chisinau, if not already stacked with disorganized (reserve) units is an ideal target for a surprise impulse Ground Strike, anyway.

All posts regarding Allied choice of first move in M/A '41 . . . I tend to side with the Allies moving first if given the choice. The Soviets need as much prep time as possible, but I think I agree that it isn't worth using up that +1 for a re-roll, especially since moving first might shift things in the other direction already.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Well. It looks like Composer99 and I do not agree on the USSR setup. I wouldn't want to defend Odessa, since the USSR is short of units. Odessa can be kept in check by using three lousy units from German aligned minors, without slowing German movements at all. Sure, the Germans need to capture Odessa in time, but it's also the place von Manstein can capture while moving with newly build units later in the game). Same goes for Sevastopol. I bypass those cities by the Germans and kill them later. In the meantime, Hungarians or Rumanians can screen those places...

A hero city should contribute to the defense of the USSR. Odessa doesn't qualify. Kiev and Dnjepropretovsk do, as does Vitebsk, Minsk and Pskov. But not Odessa. Chisinau you can debate about, since you need to put units in there to get the Odessa factory out of the city, but otherwise I think it is better to start defending with the better units at the Dnjepr in the south. Sure, you can use some units to slow the Germans down to get there, however: the USSR is short on units, because it has to prepare for a Persian invasion in early 1941. And that's pretty early in the game than usual.

Also: as Germany, I wouldn't wait to attack the soviets until M/J. I would attack at the first possibility I would get. Which is the first snow or better weather impulse in M/A. I'm going to need time to move through empty territory and even if the Russians had those speed bumps in those cities, I would attack in M/A and clear those speed bumps in Eastern Poland. I don't wait for fine weather with a USSR slowly withdrawing from the border. That's playing into the USSR hands...
Yes, the USSR could put some units in those cities in Eastern Poland you mentioned. But they are going to get killed in the first impulse, without contributing anything. They won't even slow the German advance down at all. If you defend in depth, the Germans might find the airforce in the wrong place (to far from the front after the initial ground strikes). That's what I like to see as the USSR. Stuka's and Me 109 four or five hexes behind the attacking units. And the USSR has a nice airforce and will then get the opportunity to use it. Nothing better than to ground strike the advancing German armor stacks if the FTR's aren't able to cover them. Sure, the Russians won't kill them, but immobilizing them or the HQ's which have reorganised them is the best way to slow the German advance. Those TB's have such a nice long range...

At the very least I want fine weather in the southern steppes. I want that double-die roll for my ground strikes to be useful, not half-useful. Also, if the first "suitable" opportunity comes late in the turn, all of those disorganized reserve units will get reorganized before I have a chance to pound them . . . and then a ton of MIL units will come into the game. I don't see that as a good option.
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Edit: If the USSR places them correctly, the reserves should survive M/J '41 and reorganize anyway, but why give them a free ride?

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

I would prefer using those low range FTR's around the Persian-USSR border, since that might give the USSR an immobile front in that area. Also: I don't like to start wasting Russian FTR's this way. It is a one moment thing only, and for that the USSR did spent 4 BP's? Only in a situation where the USSR is forced into slowing the Germans down (in case of a long summer with fine weather followed by a S/O with a lots of fine weather) I would opt to use this kind of desperate measures. But in the first couple of impulses of war? That's too early for such things...

[composer99]

You can probably get away without a unit in Brest-Litovsk as the German units facing it are too slow to make it to Minsk or the Ukraine in 1 impulse. Lvov I still like defending because it adds an impulse before the German forces in the south get to the Ukraine steppes. This could matter if March/April is short & bad weather or if you start off in May/June.

In fact I think the defence (or not) of those two cities and a strong defence of Odessa are the only major points of disagreement Centuur & I have on the USSR defence.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: composer99

The crappy FTR are also good for posting on hero cities (Kiev, Vitebsk, Odessa & the like) to attempt to delay the German attacks by fighting off ground strikes. This costs the Axis air missions to bring up both FTR and LND in range, uses up Axis FTR which could rebase to keep up with the forward lines (to protect against USSR ground strikes). It may also cost the Axis an impulse or two extra to reduce the city if they wait to attack until they fire off a second round of ground strikes.

On the other hand it pretty much guarantees 2 bp lost for the pilot (the crap FTR being free at setup and best off scrapped upon destruction) which the USSR is very unlikely to make good on in 1941 vs no losses if the FTR are based in the rear or pulled off the map.

Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

I think we must disagree on what constitutes a "hero city" then. The definition I know is one that gets bypassed because the Germans are afraid of flipping the number of units it will take to atttack it at good odds. And once bypassed, the FTR flies once if there's no oil stored in the city.

A good use for those types of FTRs is to protect the CP in the Black Sea (or the Caspian) where they can hold their own against axis NAV.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: composer99

You can probably get away without a unit in Brest-Litovsk as the German units facing it are too slow to make it to Minsk or the Ukraine in 1 impulse. Lvov I still like defending because it adds an impulse before the German forces in the south get to the Ukraine steppes. This could matter if March/April is short & bad weather or if you start off in May/June.

In fact I think the defence (or not) of those two cities and a strong defence of Odessa are the only major points of disagreement Centuur & I have on the USSR defence.

I agree with Centuur about Odesssa, it's not worth defending, better have a stronger front on the Dnepr trying to stop or delay the germans there.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

I would prefer using those low range FTR's around the Persian-USSR border, since that might give the USSR an immobile front in that area. Also: I don't like to start wasting Russian FTR's this way. It is a one moment thing only, and for that the USSR did spent 4 BP's? Only in a situation where the USSR is forced into slowing the Germans down (in case of a long summer with fine weather followed by a S/O with a lots of fine weather) I would opt to use this kind of desperate measures. But in the first couple of impulses of war? That's too early for such things...

2 bp. The USSR started with those FTR for free, so at most they'd lose the bp spent on the pilot (since the crappy FTR would be scrapped I assume).

Whether or not to undertake such a things depends on cost vs benefit. As you have noted re: the Caucasus there is obviously benefit to using the FTR elsewhere for the time being (until the Axis get some better FTR in the area).

Having a FTR sitting in a hero city does not force the USSR to commit it to fight the Axis.

If it buys an impulse of time while the Axis bring up FTR to counter it, and then another impulse or two if they have to do 1-2 rounds of ground strikes, and then dies gloriously when the hero city falls, that's 2 bp well spent IMO.

Or it could buy an impulse of time while the Axis bring up FTR to counter it then fly away to rinse and repeat somewhere else.

It all depends on how much time & activity limits the USSR thinks it can make the Axis waste.

[Red Prince]

Just another random thought about why I prefer not to make a M/A '41 attack, especially mid- to late-turn: if I do push through Bessarabia, suddenly Germany has units in Russia, and up goes the Soviet production multiplier. If I make an attack on any of those units (and I think Bessarabia counts for both of these), up it goes again, doubling Soviet production. If I'm going to do that, I need to be fairly certain of gaining some significant benefits.

[composer99]

I wouldn't be so worried about that. As long as you kill more bps than the USSR gains from the production bump it's probably worth it.

In March/April you're probably not seizing any factories but you might get the 3 Ukrainian resources, so let's assume the USSR uses 3 oil for reorg/saving and produces 24 pp; with the production bump taking them from 1 to 1.5 production multiple that's 12 bp over their expected production. Kill 13+ bp? Done.

[Red Prince]

Hold on to your hats, everyone! [X(]

End of Turn Roll: 7 (60%)

Impulse: 15
Weather: 4

This ought to change the scenery a little bit. I already know what action choices I'm going to take with the Axis, though I haven't moved that far ahead yet:

Germany: Air
Italy: Combined
Japan: Land

Germany gets to rebase everything into "perfect" positions, or better ones, anyway, plus they can try to ground strike those pesky Indian forces in the Sinai.
Italy gets to send out those reorganized TRS to pick up 2 more German units for the Persian front, and they might have an attack on those pesky Indians.
Japan needs the rail moves to get troops in place for upcoming invasions.

Now, an 80% chance of ending the turn has been known to fail. In fact, I already rolled a '10' in a previous impulse this turn. But the Allies will probably end up at +2 on the track. Do they dare allow the Axis a double move at this point?

Here's the actual weather implications:

[Red Prince]

Just want to throw something else out there that I mentioned earlier, but didn't get much of a positive response to . . .

If the first impulse weather for M/A '41 is not good for starting a war, I'm almost certain that a Combined Action is what Germany will want to take. In this case, it isn't to get the SUB fleet out there, but to send that AMPH loaded with a white print 7-3 INF into the Baltic Sea (and to fix any air rebasing that needs fixing). Then, if I do end up with a good opportunity for starting the war in a later impulse . . . Surprise! . . . an invasion in the Baltics, behind the lines. The Soviets aren't going to like that one bit.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

The only reserves I plan on placing in forward positions are the 7-4 Siberian INF and the 7-4 INF, both in Chisinau. That's 14 factors that can be attacked from 2 hexes maximum until the other nearby stacks are dealt with, and I don't think the Germans have the forces to overcome that on the first turn of war.

No. Do not put your best units in the front line. The Germans can bypass them and mop them up later with wimp units. You will not be able to move them ever. So you will be losing some of your best units on the map for what? Railing out a single factory from Odessa?

Wouldn't you prefer to have them Kiev, Smolensk, Dneproxxxxosk? They would have a decent chance of surviving until the second turn, especially if the Germans attack in winter.

[composer99]

While I don't think an amphibious invasion into the Baltics will make a positive contribution to the German offensive, I also don't think it will hurt it. So by all means undertake it and we'll see what happens.

[Red Prince]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Remember that the reserves arrive disorganized. They won't be able to move and they will give bonuses to the German attacks. Leningrad is a good place to occupy with reserves. I usually use Minsk and Pskov as speed bumps with a single reserve unit each. You will find that you have a lot of reserves to place on the map but not many good hexes for them. They are very useful in the second turn of the attack, but not so much so during the first turn.

The only reserves I plan on placing in forward positions are the 7-4 Siberian INF and the 7-4 INF, both in Chisinau. That's 14 factors that can be attacked from 2 hexes maximum until the other nearby stacks are dealt with, and I don't think the Germans have the forces to overcome that on the first turn of war.

No. Do not put your best units in the front line. The Germans can bypass them and mop them up later with wimp units. You will not be able to move them ever. So you will be losing some of your best units on the map for what? Railing out a single factory from Odessa?

Wouldn't you prefer to have them Kiev, Smolensk, Dneproxxxxosk? They would have a decent chance of surviving until the second turn, especially if the Germans attack in winter.

I don't need to anymore. I figured it was my best chance to hold Chisinau. I've already committed 5 units to get that Odessa factory railed out. If the Axis gets the first impulse, and if the weather is good enough, Chisnau must be held until that factory can rail out and the screening units can retreat in an organized fashion. If Chisinau falls, that means a large number of units end up OOS, and at least one of them will probably have to flip to put them back in supply . . . unless I use the dinky INF Division in Odessa to do that. Even if I do, the screening units need to retreat safely, and that's made more difficult if I don't defend Chisnau with strong units. I'm kind of short on strong units at the moment.

But things have now changed. The chances for good weather just dropped by 10% and that means I might have an extra turn's worth of reinforcements to use instead of the Reserves.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



Not in an oil game. A stored oil is too precious to put in a hero city for the Germans to capture or strat bomb (after the FTR gets flipped) and then giggle. Put it in a hero city and it flys once. You can't even re-org it to harvest the pilot.

If the Germans attack the city in the same turn that the FTR flew (whether on the same or a subsequent impulse) then your objection does not come into play.

With the exception of late-turn ground strikes, if the Germans are willing to wait until the next turn to attack a city just to get the pleasure of seeing FTR not re-flip, that's a USSR win in my books as those units could be pushing forward somewhere else.

I think we must disagree on what constitutes a "hero city" then. The definition I know is one that gets bypassed because the Germans are afraid of flipping the number of units it will take to atttack it at good odds. And once bypassed, the FTR flies once if there's no oil stored in the city.

A good use for those types of FTRs is to protect the CP in the Black Sea (or the Caspian) where they can hold their own against axis NAV.

The unstated point of a lot of posts about the weak USSR fighters is that they should never be in the air where a German fighter can get to them. Definitely against a German TAC with poor A2A strength. But otherwise they cover things in the rear (against paradrops, the Caspian Sea, the Baku front, ...).