Airfield icon FOW breach bug

[rader]

I've noticed this bug for a long time, but today GJ and I uncovered a new dimension.

The sequence of play and icon display on the map (and the fact that the game dosen't carry previous turn memory forward) creates a fairly serious FOW breach.

If I am playing Japanese and move an air unit into a base that didn't have one on the previous turn, an airfield icon shows up. Since the game dosen't track this in memory, the icon will even show up to the allied player. This forecasts to the allied player (before they make their move) that the Japanese player moved aircraft in to that base. I.e., the Allies get to see some of the Japanese moves before they issue orders - and this dosen't work in reverse.

Now we discovered that even if there were a few aircraft/air units at a base, and the Japanese player moves in many more, the icon goes from its normal light red to a much deeper bright red. This tells the allied player where the Japanese have moved their aircraft, and what airfields to bomb.

Note that as far as I can tell the mouseover reporting the number of aircraft at a base does seem to work correctly - if there were 0 aircraft on the turn the base was reconed, it still reports 0 if the Japanese move aircraft in (I think, but this might not be true in all cases).

Is there any way to change it so that the icon reflects the status of the previous turn? If not, is there any way to just show one colour of icon for enemy bases (i.e., not have the icons darken with more aircraft stationed there)? This is a pretty one-sided FOW breach.

[Nemo121]

I think that's been known about for a long time. Certainly I've known about this for years.

People tried workarounds with icon changes where all icons ( lightly populated airfield and heavily populated ) had the same colour but that didn't solve the problem of an icon appearing where there was none once you move planes in.

[rader]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I think that's been known about for a long time. Certainly I've known about this for years.

People tried workarounds with icon changes where all icons ( lightly populated airfield and heavily populated ) had the same colour but that didn't solve the problem of an icon appearing where there was none once you move planes in.

I was aware of the no icon/icon thing. I can deal with that one by just leaving a small recon detechment of 3 planes in any base I might want to move planes in... that's what I do now. But I can't exactly leave hundreds of planes in any airfield I might use. How do we implement a version where the icon colour dosen't change with population? Do you have any idea of what thresholds the icons change at? Is it based on number of aircraft or air groups?

[JeffroK]

Why is this one sided, cant you also see which bases have suddenly got a base icon or the colour changes?

But I also think info without recon shouldnt happen.

[LoBaron]

It is one-sided because the Allied players do the turn after the Japanese players´
changes.

So he sees all Japanese changes on bases with a DL, while the Japanese player does not have this
luxury as he only sees the map before any Allied changes take place.

Long known issue. Sadly it must be buried quite deep in the code, otherwise I am sure it would
have been adressed already.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: rader
Do you have any idea of what thresholds the icons change at? Is it based on number of aircraft or air groups?

IIRC the color code depends on relative strenght, so is influenced by other units in the area.
As for A/C, from my experience it depends on relative plane count.

[michaelm75au]

Sorry, but I don't seen that happening when I try it.
FOW on.
As player 1, I move a group of Daves to a base with no a/c. The icon showed up as expected.
Ended the turn.
Loaded as player 2, and looked at the base. No icon and no planes as base had 0 DL.

Am I missing something???[&:]

[GreyJoy]

Michealm, here the problem was the following:
 
I had a very low DL on the enemy base (Ominato) cause the recon group didn't fly the previous day (DL 5/14).
So i didn't see any plane number passing over the AF icon with the mouse...but i saw the icon becoming "redder"...from light red to deep red...i thought he moved in the previous turn and i didn't have the necessary DL to see the planes, but that anyhow my intel was able to tell me that the airfield was "active"...so i attacked.
 
Actually the problem is that those planes were moved in by Rader that very same turn so i couldn't have a clue about it, no matter the DL i had...
 
And if this is just one-sided, it clearly favours the allies

[michaelm75au]

The darkness of the color is determined by the 'visible planes to enemy' at the base. This is calculated as a random number from the actual planes present during several phases of the turn resolution.

It not affect by moving groups during the player's phase as the visible values wont change.

That also means that if DL of the base does or does not change, the visible plane count could change between turns - go up or down.
It being dark red on Japan's turn, does not necessarily mean it will be dark red or even present when Allies load it. What they see, depends on the visible plane count calculated during the previous turn resolution.
Actually the Allied view should be the same as if they froze the map at the end of the replay.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The darkness of the color is determined by the 'visible planes to enemy' at the base. This is calculated as a random number from the actual planes present during several phases of the turn resolution.

It not affect by moving groups during the player's phase as the visible values wont change.

That also means that if DL of the base does or does not change, the visible plane count could change between turns - go up or down.
It being dark red on Japan's turn, does not necessarily mean it will be dark red or even present when Allies load it. What they see, depends on the visible plane count calculated during the previous turn resolution.
Actually the Allied view should be the same as if they froze the map at the end of the replay.

Oh...i see...so that's should explain why i didn't noticed this "feature" during previous "ambushes"...

Thanks Michealm!

[michaelm75au]

The important thing here is that the visible numbers at enemy bases do persist across the saves.

So the Allies aren't getting a view of the Japanese player's group moves during his order phase, as the visible numbers at the base aren't changing.

I suppose player 1 could fake out player 2 by moving lots of planes to a base during the previous turn so the detected base is showing dark color, and then during his order phase, move all the planes out of the base. So when player 2 commits a bomber force against that base, there are no a/c to bomb just 5000 AAA devices.[:D]

Again, player 2 could do the same thing to player 1.

[d0mbo]

So the claim that an icon shows up to the allied player in the orders phase of the game is false?
 
If so, all the players that did a 'workaround' can withdraw all their 3 AC groups
 
I do wonder how multiple experienced players got the idea that something was wrong whilst there doesn't seem to be an issue?
 
Regards,
 
d0mbo.
 
 

[michaelm75au]

Without knowing the deeper details, it may look to be an issue even to experienced players.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Sorry, but I don't seen that happening when I try it.
FOW on.
As player 1, I move a group of Daves to a base with no a/c. The icon showed up as expected.
Ended the turn.
Loaded as player 2, and looked at the base. No icon and no planes as base had 0 DL.

Am I missing something???[&:]

Michael, I am sorry in case I spread disinformation on an non existing issue, TBH I did not pay attention to
this for quite some time, so it might well not occur anymore.

Anyways, if at all the issue is only visible on IJ Base DL > 0.

If you do the same steps as you described above on a base
on which the allied player has a high(er) DL, the issue is reproducable IIRC.
(a/c icon appearing or color getting darker)

This way the Allied player can "peek" on changes made by the Japanese player in this very turn
and react to them.

[michaelm75au]

That isn't how it appears to be.
In the images below, the top image is the view of Prome during the Japanese player's order phase.
I didn't move any groups there in the order phase.
The second image is what the Allied player views of the same area during his order phase.

The color of the AF icon is slightly darker in the Allied player image, as the 'sighted by enemy' values are a bit higher than what really is at the base. This number was set at the end of the previous turn's resolution and does not change until the next turn's resolution phase.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

That isn't how it appears to be.
In the images below, the top image is the view of Prome during the Japanese player's order phase.
I didn't move any groups there in the order phase.
The second image is what the Allied player views of the same area during his order phase.

The color of the AF icon is slightly darker in the Allied player image, as the 'sighted by enemy' values are a bit higher than what really is at the base. This number was set at the end of the previous turn's resolution and does not change until the next turn's resolution phase.

Michealm, sorry, but if you move more groups in during the jap order phase the allies should keep seeing the light red icon...while it sees the icon dark red...

i'm getting a bit puzzled...so sorry if i misunderstood...

[LoBaron]

Just to be clear what I understand on this topic:

Prerequisites:

Fresh savegame
IJ Base A without a/c and a high DL (showed empty - wihtout airbase symbol - to the allied player on recon the turn before)
IJ Base B with planes in transfer range

Steps to reproduce:

Japanese player rebases a/c in range to Base A (and assigns them a mission - e.g. CAP)
Japanese player saves and sends savegame
Allied player opens savegame and checks Base A hex


The issue is reproducable if the Allied player sees an airbase symbol at Base A (the one which only shows when a/c present)

If this is not the case you have just debunked a long persisting urban bug legend, Michael. [;)]

[ADB123]

This function has been around since WitP days - and everyone who plays either side for any extent of time knows it.

I play both sides in pbem. In my Allied game I'm always on the lookout for Japanese air movement. However, what my Recon, SIGINT and mouse-overs tell me isn't always up-to-date - often it is a day late and my opponent has already moved out his planes when the Big Boys come in to try to spoil things.

As a Japanese player in two pbems I know that my opponent gets the "last player change" and can know where I have moved my planes when he does his turn. This means that I have to be concious and careful about where I move my planes and assume that they can be jumped if I haven't put in place CAP, AA and other counter measures (such as sending out attacks against my opponent's air bases - because planes in the air aren't caught on the ground).

I vaguely remember one of the original Devs back in the early WitP days mentioning that this should be rationalized as one more Allied SIGINT intellegence advantage - it doesn't hurt me while I play either side to think about it this way.

BTW - we are still playing the last official release in all three games. We have very, very few HRs, and we have very, very, very little whining and grouching about the way the game is going. (I've even stopped whining about the Weather...)

So my advice to everyone is to take a deep breath, say to yourselves, "it's only a game", and stop trying to get Michael M to change something in the game every time you see something that you don't like in a given turn in your game...

[beppi]

Basically that "problem" is quite old.

Another method to detect is to just recon every available base. The at the begin of your turn quickly check each base and if it is deep red but recon only reports a 20 or 30 planes -> nuke it.

I am not sure if the recon information is not just deliberately falsified. So turn 1 you get 50 fighters, 50 bombers. Next turn base is deep red and you get 20 transport planes -> nuke it. So you just even not get the old lower numbers, you instead get some random very low numbers which are even a better indicator.

Hard to remember it exactly cause the last time i used the technique is quite some time ago.

But basically, the best way to fix such a thing would be to change areal transport to take exactly 1 day and not beeing instant like it is now.

Problem is ->

I move 100 DBs to a remote island with transfer option (so they move 30 hexes). Then i set them to naval attack. Enemy does not see anything. Combat resolution phase kicks in. My DBs attack for example a supply convoy. During the next turn i move them away again an they are save. Quite a cheesy jump/jump out. Same works for CAP planes and Airfield attacks and whatever.

So basically:

1.) You cannot stop such sneaky move in operations (Allies can right now, Japanese not. Both should not)
2.) You cannot detect such sneaky move in operations with recoon (Allies can right now, Japanese not. Both should not)
3.) You cannot nuke bases which are part of such operations as the planes are gone too fast
4.) Basically the planes are able to move much to far during a day. Imagine Netties, moving 50 hexes transfern and the do a 15 hex distance morning torpedo strike. In one day.

Basically for me

1.) fix the display of the changed airfield symbol
2.) fix the recon on such airfields. The recon numbers should the ones from last turn at least. Not just some random transport stuff on which you detect that there was somthing. Actually you see on the recon result if there was a plane movement even without the color of the airfield symbol. (I am not 100% positive on that as i used that technique the last time a few months ago. But i am quite sure)
3.) Transport of planes should take 1 turn and should happen on the end of the turn. Like it is now if you move a short distance by rail. So arrival of planes -> at the begin of the turn resolution phase. Leaving -> at the end of the turn resolution phase. So they can be hit prior to leaving, and they can be hit if they arrive prior to attacking something. Right now it is kind of cheesy. (but that only in combination with the two fixes).

[rader]

I think beppi has explained it pretty well. It's basically that the colour of the icon changes for the Allied player if the Japanese move planes in on the same turn. I htink this only happens if the allies are reconning the base. Instead of showing what was there when the recon planes were flying, it shows what is there after the Japanese turn (in terms of icon colour, not in terms of mouseover).

As beppi indicated, I think in terms of mouseover, it might be a problem too. It dosen't show you what the Japanese player moved in exactly, but it does give the allied players "tells" that there might have been changes in the airfield composition. Andit likely also gives similar clues about Japanese moves for land units and TFs...

I guess it might be a programming showstopper to try to keep in memory the status from the turn before, so that both sides have exactly the same information when they run their respective turns? I.e., both should see the status from the end of the previous turn/start of the current turn, before either side has issued any orders.

As a simpler alternative (not perfect, but preferable to the current situation), is it possible to make it so all your allied icons look the same to you all the time? (I.e., never show up as brighter/dimmer?). Honestly, I'm not sure why even your own icons need to change at all. Micahel has dramatically imporved all the mouseover information so much, the icon colour change seems to be practically obsolete.