The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

About invading Korea....
 
Sincerly i don't see how i could hope to do anything more than conquering a base in Korea... I mean...he has a lot of restricted divisions there and at least 8000 AVs needed for the Manchukoku garrison...i would need to dunkirk first the 14,000 AVs i have stuck on the beaches on Honsu before even thinking of invading up there...seems a bit overstreched imho...and very risky...i will have to rely only on CV coverage...and we're now discovering that a strike composed of more than 200 bombers will always get through so.... nah[:-]

[GreyJoy]

Just to announce that the new operation "DUST 'N' BONES" has been approved by HQ GreyJoy (no more hairy stuff, yes).

it should begin by the end of November 1944 (time i need to get the minimum preparation requirements).

HURRAH!

[koniu]

Now i read Rader's explanation on the tech forum...so the allies DO know japanese moves while japanese cannot know allied moves? Is that correct?...pretty unfair if you ask me...

Yes this is true. When Jap player sending his orders to Alied player he know what he do in his order phase. If Jap player transport planes to AF or split TF he already know that. He will also knew lad and TF movements directions

It is very unfair because those orders and moves should not happen until turn solution.
But it is as it is.[:(] I think those are engine limitations.

To avoid that save should have data before and after Japanese orders are made and after allied orders phase engine should merge orders. But i think this is to complex to game engine

[GreyJoy]

Micheal has just stated that the issue doesn't exist...
 
Don't have any clue guys...it's too complex for me [:)]

[Itdepends]

I discussed the same issue with FatR - after a ground combat round he gave orders for a unit to head east- I could see the movement pip when I was entering my orders and it definitely wasn't moving prior to that as it had been attacking my units.

[JohnDillworth]

The KB is hunting... we delivered a fish in Shinano's belly on the night of 13th....we was moving east of Marcus, right into my subs net.... probably looking for some juicy convoys near the Aleutinas...

I immediately dispatched my CVs (stationing at Addak) to look for a final clash away from the LBA cover..

Squirrel!!!! (reference to the movie Up! when all the dogs get distracted by a single squirrel). Maybe the KB is on the hunt or maybe something else. It's not like there has ever been an occasion in this game where you fired torpedoes at a single CV and assumed the whole pack of them was about.

As to the new logo. I like it. You might, however, consider putting the Foo Fighters "Skin and Bones" album on the old iPod. Name fits a bit closer and I just can't the song out of my heads with the new "dust & Bones" lyric.

[Nemo121]

He might say it doesn't exist but my opponent routinely bombs bases I've moved into the turn before. There's no recon to tell him my planes are there. I move in overnight, the icon appears and he bombs.

Hell, I use this bug to fake him into bombing airfields by basing floatplanes at them ( which are relatively invulnerable to destruction by aerial bombing ) and drawing a 500 B-29 raid the next day because the dark red icon pops up.

If the bug didn't exist my maskirovka wouldn't work.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

He might say it doesn't exist but my opponent routinely bombs bases I've moved into the turn before. There's no recon to tell him my planes are there. I move in overnight, the icon appears and he bombs.

Hell, I use this bug to fake him into bombing airfields by basing floatplanes at them ( which are relatively invulnerable to destruction by aerial bombing ) and drawing a 500 B-29 raid the next day because the dark red icon pops up.

If the bug didn't exist my maskirovka wouldn't work.

Concur. When I get my opponent's turn, I know that he has ordered units to move. I know this because units are shown moving even right after combat when it would normally be impossible for them to have been in movement the prior turn due to the combat. As for basing planes sometimes I see it sometimes I don't but it does happen.

I really do not think it is so onerous for Japan as like you said, you do not know how many planes or in the case of movement, you never know which unit is moving. Considering the overall weakness of Allied intel in the game compared to real life, it sort of evens things out.

[GreyJoy]

Yes, i did see the icon becoming "redder". But i don't understand Michealm's explanation of the problem...

[koniu]

Issue with allied seeing future in not problem with LCU. Allies can react onlu one day ealier. But one day is many with planes and TF.

[Canoerebel]

1.  Like it would be possible in late 1944 for Japan to suddenly rebase 500 aircraft to an isololated airfield behind the front lines and right under the nose of a huge Allied base and concentartion of shipping...without the Allies noticing anything was up?  But rader thinks the Japanese should be able to send this huge wave of aircraft to the exposed forward base where Allied radar and sailors and ground troops and pilots would all call in to their commanders and say, "Gee, captain, look at the 500 aicraft flying right over our heads to a forward base!  Aint that somethin'?  Do you think we ought to molest that forward base before the Japanese aircraft can attack?).  Rader protests a perfectly plausible scenario in that the Allies jump all over such a mission because they would see it coming.
 
2.  Like it would be possible for Japan to send 200 Peggy kamikazees to a remote island base right in the heart of the traffic-choked Allied sea lanes in the Kuriles, the Allies wouldn't notice this vast amount of aircraft in their midst and on their radar screeens, and Japan would have had secret stores of fuel, repair capacity and base force personnel to handle this sudden influx of bombers...but the Allies wouldn't have a clue and would lose 30 tankers (or whatever)?  Rader makes no protest about the ridiculousness of this scenario that never could have happened.
 
These are facets of the game that just don't model real life, but which we all accept as being part of give and take, ebb and flow, of the game.  Understandably, rader sees things from his perspective, but he's imposing all the house rules and doing all the squawking, while good-natured GreyJoy accomodates him. 

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

1.  Like it would be possible in late 1944 for Japan to suddenly rebase 500 aircraft to an isololated airfield behind the front lines and right under the nose of a huge Allied base and concentartion of shipping...without the Allies noticing anything was up?  But rader thinks the Japanese should be able to send this huge wave of aircraft to the exposed forward base where Allied radar and sailors and ground troops and pilots would all call in to their commanders and say, "Gee, captain, look at the 500 aicraft flying right over our heads to a forward base!  Aint that somethin'?  Do you think we ought to molest that forward base before the Japanese aircraft can attack?).  Rader protests a perfectly plausible scenario in that the Allies jump all over such a mission because they would see it coming.

2.  Like it would be possible for Japan to send 200 Peggy kamikazees to a remote island base right in the heart of the traffic-choked Allied sea lanes in the Kuriles, the Allies wouldn't notice this vast amount of aircraft in their midst and on their radar screeens, and Japan would have had secret stores of fuel, repair capacity and base force personnel to handle this sudden influx of bombers...but the Allies wouldn't have a clue and would lose 30 tankers (or whatever)?  Rader makes no protest about the ridiculousness of this scenario that never could have happened.

These are facets of the game that just don't model real life, but which we all accept as being part of give and take, ebb and flow, of the game. Understandably, rader sees things from his perspective, but he's imposing all the house rules and doing all the squawking, while good-natured GreyJoy accomodates him.

+1 I have been saying that about Rader from day 1...from day 1 he has set it up for a complete Japanese fantasy game for himself, while not allowing GJ to use his most powerful tools..

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

1.  Like it would be possible in late 1944 for Japan to suddenly rebase 500 aircraft to an isololated airfield behind the front lines and right under the nose of a huge Allied base and concentartion of shipping...without the Allies noticing anything was up?  But rader thinks the Japanese should be able to send this huge wave of aircraft to the exposed forward base where Allied radar and sailors and ground troops and pilots would all call in to their commanders and say, "Gee, captain, look at the 500 aicraft flying right over our heads to a forward base!  Aint that somethin'?  Do you think we ought to molest that forward base before the Japanese aircraft can attack?).  Rader protests a perfectly plausible scenario in that the Allies jump all over such a mission because they would see it coming.

2.  Like it would be possible for Japan to send 200 Peggy kamikazees to a remote island base right in the heart of the traffic-choked Allied sea lanes in the Kuriles, the Allies wouldn't notice this vast amount of aircraft in their midst and on their radar screeens, and Japan would have had secret stores of fuel, repair capacity and base force personnel to handle this sudden influx of bombers...but the Allies wouldn't have a clue and would lose 30 tankers (or whatever)?  Rader makes no protest about the ridiculousness of this scenario that never could have happened.

These are facets of the game that just don't model real life, but which we all accept as being part of give and take, ebb and flow, of the game.  Understandably, rader sees things from his perspective, but he's imposing all the house rules and doing all the squawking, while good-natured GreyJoy accomodates him. 

While your point is clear, and has some real merit, it simply isn't good for the game if one side is given 'free' extra intel that the other side has no access to during the game. This game is a great testing ground for lots of game mechanics, and Rader's 'squawking' has actually produced some useful dialogue about possible tweaks and fixes for all to use.

Yo might remember when good natured GJ landed in Hachinoe that he piped up pretty quickly about losing leaders from all of his units. It's not completely one-sided anymore, and as GJ has gained experience and a great amount of knowledge of how the game 'should or could' behave, he has given it right back to Rader as well. This is one of the best dialogues i think that has existed between opponents.

As for RL, so many of the things that are happening over Japan couldn't happen in real life. Like the fact that probably a bit more intel about Allied force movements would fall into Japanese hands considering the hundreds of thousands of loyal observers everywhere the Allies are deployed right now. This is not accounted for at all, except for a few meagre coast watcher reports on Hokkaido.

[Canoerebel]

Well, I just spent an hour dealing with ATT trying to unravel a massive and confusing billing error that is affecting my business.  This chapped my rear end, so if I stated my case too forcefully, that is undoubtedly why.  I may be taking out my ATT frustrations on rader, though I do think the underlying point is valid:  There are scores or hundreds of little gives and takes to the game that we live with, and changing any one or group now, when the game has reached a level of equilibrium, will throw the game off balance.

[GreyJoy]

Guys, i do think that Rader has a point here.
I've done some tests (well just two actually) and it really seems to me that the allies do know with anticipation some japanese moves (arrows, moved a/c etc...not sure about ships tough).
This is clearly something the devs should look at imho. It's not about me and Rader and this particular match. It's all about game balance.
Unfortunately i don't think this matter can be HRed...i cannot make me blind and force me not to see things on my monitor... and, as Nemo said, this may probably be used in a counter-intelligence way against the allies themselfs....but, a part from that, i think this issue should be looked at by the devs.
 
About me and Rader...everything is fine between us. Really. And Rader several times has shown great respect for me, asking me to re-do some turns (i remember once over Karachi after a terrible battle lost because i forgot to give orders to my fighters) or allowing a reply (during the leader bug at Hachinoe).
 
That's how two friends should do when they play togheder on opposite sites. Don't know how many of you play tennis...but when you play with a friend and none of you have clearly seen if the ball was in or out of the line, you simply give him "two more balls"...meaning you re-do the point...
Between me and Rader has always been like that and we solved every single problem that arose just speaking each other frankly. Both of us wanna win, but above all we wanna have fun...and there's no better way to have fun than to have both the players happy about the game balance.
 
As i said other times...don't look at this scenario2 game as a RL simulation. It's a whole another japan...it's another parallell universe, where Japan is led by a leader who knows his job...
 
It's a Fringe Event![:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Well, I just spent an hour dealing with ATT trying to unravel a massive and confusing billing error that is affecting my business.  This chapped my rear end, so if I stated my case too forcefully, that is undoubtedly why.  I may be taking out my ATT frustrations on rader, though I do think the underlying point is valid:  There are scores or hundreds of little gives and takes to the game that we live with, and changing any one or group now, when the game has reached a level of equilibrium, will throw the game off balance.

I feel your pain. I was trying to do similar things with Sky TV switching over to an HD box yesterday. I would have vilified anyone within range after that 2hour debacle!

The balance is delicate. I think it started heavily weighted toward Rader and the IJ cause. I also wonder if GJ might not have enjoyed the fact that the odds were so stacked against him, as he certainly has enjoyed the dramatic comeback and turning the tables completely! All the more amazing he did it with some of his best stuff (4Es for instance) hand-cuffed.

[obvert]

That's how two friends should do when they play togheder on opposite sites. Don't know how many of you play tennis...but when you play with a friend and none of you have clearly seen if the ball was in or out of the line, you simply give him "two more balls"...meaning you re-do the point...
Between me and Rader has always been like that and we solved every single problem that arose just speaking each other frankly. Both of us wanna win, but above all we wanna have fun...and there's no better way to have fun than to have both the players happy about the game balance.

+1

[Nemo121]

1. Like it would be possible in late 1944 for Japan to suddenly rebase 500 aircraft to an isololated airfield behind the front lines and right under the nose of a huge Allied base and concentartion of shipping...without the Allies noticing anything was up?

The problem with this CR is that you are making assumptions about a lot of things which may not necessarily apply.
Assumptions:
1. It is 1944.
2. It is an isolated airfield.
3. It is near the front lines ( not sure how 2 and 3 correlate )
4. Right under the nose of a huge Allied base

Obviously the problem isn't so much in those circumstances but the fact that this happens:
1. Overnight ( when it would be impossible, using WW2 recon technology to have info of the rebasing (recon photos etc ) available in time to mount a huge bombing mission the next morning ).

2. At ALL times and in ALL places - including bases way behind the lines where no Allied recon at all is happening.


So, I might disagree with the above example but I think your point about the HRs is very, very well taken. I think though that's balancing out too as GJ has gotten experience to be able to say "Uhuh, that rule doesn't work for me"

[HansBolter]

I am a little surprised at how bent out of shape the JFBs seem to be getting over a little free intel going the Allies way in a game that completely fails to model the HUGE intel advantage the Allies actually had.

How about we just suppose the allies intercepted the orders and decoded them....wait....no that can't happen in RL!!!


It's been a while since I had a chance to post, but I have wanted to get back to you Nemo regarding your answers to my last post. I found your attempt to characterize the paring of anomalous data as somehow unscientific by describing real science as including all data rather entertaining, but essentially unconvincing. I also find your attempt to characterize yourself as the guardian and champion of fairness as a bit comical in light of the tenacity with which you cling to the inclusion of what you admitted was an abherration not only as a component of the essential data that should be included in an assessment, but as the very basis of that assessment. Furthermore, I think it extremely unreasonable of you to label a growing concensus as a "bandwagon" in an effort to undermine it's veracity and credibility. Kind of a cheap shot if you will.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. It's just an assessment of an argument I found rather unconvincing.

I know you can do better. Maybe you were just having a bad day.

and btw, I didn't put words in your mouth, I was careful to qualify my statement as "it seems you are implying", in retrospect it would have perhaps been better if I had put it thus: "then one can infer from your statements that...."

anyway, it's a great game we should all have fun playing and I do enjoy the intellectual stimulation provided by people here like you who put effort into the thoughts they are expressing

[jeffk3510]

Nevermind..