Tokyo Rose was a Hussy! Chez (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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bradfordkay
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by bradfordkay »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, it really bugs me that Japan can mass produce and use the Tojo in early or mid 1942, facing P-39s and Mohawks, while the Allies have no ability to produce early.  That was what I was trying to reign in when I asked for PDU Off.  But if it's too hurtful to Japan, then I think I'd rather play with PDU On and just accept that we're playing Star Wars.


Steve and I have been playing with PDU Off in our Scen 1 game and I feel that it does hamper the Japanese player more than the allied because of what you guys mention. The Japanese player cannot cancel all obsolete production and concentrate only on the best planes. To me this is fair because the allied player is unable to adjust production at all and is forced to fight with limited numbers of obsolete aircraft long into the game. However, "fair" might not be enough to allow for a balanced game...


With PDU off, the allied player cannot change all of his stateside squadrons to obsolete aircraft, freeing the few P38s he has for frontline use. I was happy to see that some of the navy and marine fighter squadrons that start with F4Fs had Brewsters in their upgrade path, allowing the historical swapout of Buffaloes for Waldcats in the carrier squadrons.
fair winds,
Brad
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JeffroK
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by JeffroK »

I still think the JFB have the ability to stomp on Allied airpower if they do it from the start and keep up the pressure.
Their advantages are the high experience of their pilots and the long range of both Zero & Hayabusa.

But I havent seen any attempt to do so, Chez has stuck his head in his shell and now CR is rattling it.

I also think, but are such a numby at japanese production am unsure, that numbers of these fighters can be kept high unless you allocate everything to R&D (and lose the war in the mean time)

None of this explains the failure to garrison all of these DEI bases with even a Battalion.
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princep01
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by princep01 »

Zuluhour, your above comment is the finest example of eastern gibberish I have seen in a very long time. I read it thrice and am yet to discern any plausible meaning. Care to try again? I'd really like to understand what you were attempting to convey.
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zuluhour
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by zuluhour »

My Dear Prince, pardon me Dan,

S&T = strategy and tactics

The first ps is in reply to another thread, quite funny. I have to visit the southland again, its been to long.

I am just sorry to see the thread which holds some responsibilty for me starting an AAR and a PBEM lose momentum. To put it out there point blank, I was looking forward to a well thought out, bloody, nail bite'n campaign and even from a TWIT at Zulu HQ just seems like the emperor is blowing gas.




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Oh yeah, I don't believe for one second that PDU on or off has anything to do with the situation here. Its gut feeling, which is all we have to work with at Zulu HQ, but none the less there was plenty of time to confront fortress Palembang and occupy the DEI completly, it may have been exceptionally brutal in the casualty department but the window was there. Nemo's advice, which is particularly difficult for TWITs at HQ to digest, was seemingly perfect in timing and method. Dan weighed the advice, proved expert at logistics and force allocation and took the decisive action. Pretty cool thing in a war game like WITP-AE with all the cool stuff going on and so much at your finger tips, overwhelming at times.
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njp72
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by njp72 »

Completely agree Zulu, PDU on or off has nothing to do with it.

As a Japanese player in either scenario 1 or 2 you can wrought great havoc on capable allied players if you are prepare to risk/employ your assets in a concentrated and coordinated fashion.

There is hardly a surface on the map where Japan can't establish local superiority within a couple of days during the first 6 to 12 months of the war. After that well..........

My 2cents worth
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, it really bugs me that Japan can mass produce and use the Tojo in early or mid 1942, facing P-39s and Mohawks, while the Allies have no ability to produce early.  That was what I was trying to reign in when I asked for PDU Off.  But if it's too hurtful to Japan, then I think I'd rather play with PDU On and just accept that we're playing Star Wars.

Steve and I have been playing with PDU Off in our Scen 1 game and I feel that it does hamper the Japanese player more than the allied because of what you guys mention. The Japanese player cannot cancel all obsolete production and concentrate only on the best planes. To me this is fair because the allied player is unable to adjust production at all and is forced to fight with limited numbers of obsolete aircraft long into the game. However, "fair" might not be enough to allow for a balanced game...

With PDU off, the allied player cannot change all of his stateside squadrons to obsolete aircraft, freeing the few P38s he has for frontline use. I was happy to see that some of the navy and marine fighter squadrons that start with F4Fs had Brewsters in their upgrade path, allowing the historical swapout of Buffaloes for Waldcats in the carrier squadrons.

I'm also playing PDU off in scenario one. I've found against Hurricane's and P-38's the Zero's/Oscar's just don't cut it. In scenario 1, the Japanese can field a maximum of 85 Tojo's for the entire Pacific until the Tojo IIb comes online in 5/43 (unless accelerated of course). Hardly any chance of sweeping the skies and establishing air superiority with a total of 3 air units equipped with the Tojo IIa. Bombers aren't much better. I'd say I have a ratio of 60/40 Sally's vs Lily's. I can equip one, yes one Sentai, with Helen Ia's for a total of 30 aircraft until the Helen IIa comes online in mid-43. I'm guessing these upgrade restrictions still apply in scenario 2 if PDU off is in play.

Throw in the large numbers of units permanently restricted to Nate's, Sonia's and Ida's you get a good training program, but forget about any usefulness other than in China. The number of units that are forced to wait on upgrading to mid/later 43 models means for all of 1942 you are severely handcuffed with a lot of Nate's and Sonia's.

This doesn't explain Chez's play overall, but in my experience playing two games as Japan with both PDU on/off, I think off severely restricts the Japanese player. Establishing a historical perimeter is no problem, start thinking about anything else against a GOOD Allied opponent that requires air superiority, forget it.

Personally, I won't play PDU off ever again regardless of what side I play.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Canoerebel »

Thanks for the comments regarding PDU, gents. I am listening carefully. One of my favorite things in AE (and WitP) has been the occasions when I really had my back against the wall, facing a Japanese auto victory and pulling my hair out. That kind of delicate balance between excitement and fear, and the challenge of coming back, is exhilarating. (Never mind that I contributed very much to my predicaments, as some folks might accurately point out.)

I hope you gents won't mind me being frank with you about my performance in the game as I see it. I am going to be honest about where I see strengths and flaws. No need in replying, because that will just devolve into a long, "No, you're really good," "No, you suck worse than you think," cascade.

The situation in this game has come about from a variety of factors. I did some really good things early on, I had some luck early on, I was smart enough to act on an excellent suggestion about Palembang (thank you, Nemo), and every action has been met by an equal and opposite inaction on the part of my opponent. It just seems like everything I've touched has turned to gold and frozen my opponent solid. It must be said that much of what has happened wouldn't have happened against many players.

I am not walking away from this match with an elevated opinion of my abilities. I don't think what I've done here would work against the vast majority of experienced IJ players. I've been most fortunate.

On a scale of 1-10, measuring a combination of experience and skill, I'd rate myself a 6 or a 7. The rating of any player who plays as the Allies is probably going to get a decent bump due to the inequities between the two sides. Taking that into consideration, a 6 is probably a better measure.

I have done some really fine work in predicting where the game would be months down the road. I knew where I was going and I was able to do it when I said (with the inaction by Japan contributing much to that record). I've also managed to skillfully, in my opinion, build on the position in Sumatra and the Java Sea without sticking my nose out to far and taking a drubbing in the process. The Allies are in a very, very strong position. I am proud of that. With all the work that has gone into doing so much all over the map, I don't want to see the game end.

But the truly elite players of this game - the 8s and 9s and 10s - would have pushed forward and already eviscerated Japan. Where I took a cautious course, they would have been bold and, given their skill, would have succeeded.

There are too many nitty-gritty details about the game that I'm not interested in and that doesn't suit my preferences. You cannot be a top-level performer without doing and knowing the things I shrug off. I am good, but I am not great.

But I sure do love this game!
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bradfordkay
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by bradfordkay »

Dan, one difference I have seen in your game with Steve versus the two I have played with him is that in my games he almost never attempted an invasion without either serious IJN support or air superiority. Admittedly, I never pull the AVG out of the CBI theater, but in our games he always built up Khota Bahru and Kuching so as to dominate the air/seas around Singapore and Palembang with Zeros and Bettys.

I've learned a little form you in how to be more of a risk taker but I honestly think that something else was going on in your game. It seems as if he was totally concentrated in the South Pacific, thinking that the NEI would fall as usual with little that the allied player could do. In our games the conquest of the SRA has always cost him a carrier or two (usually from the mini KB, not one of his fleet carriers) as well as having taken slightly longer than IRL, but I hadn't ever thought of bringing in reinforcements to the area - figuring that doing so would be throwing away good troops.

I will say that in both of my games with him he has settled on a defensive perimeter and then hunkered down, waiting for my offensive with the intent to make it as costly as possible. In our CHS game, his defensive perimeter included all the bases on the northern coast of Australia, Thursday Island, Port Moresby and the Solomons. Since the defense of northern Australia cost him so much in our last game, this time he declined to invade at any of those locations and left Port Moresby alone - choosing instead to quickly grab New Caledonia and the new Hebrides before I could build a cohesive defense there (I chose to build up Fiji first - those two level 9 airfields make that a very strong bastion). In both games there was a fairly long sitzkrieg where he was building his defenses and I was building up the forces for an offensive. Thus I am not so surprised at his relative inaction at this point of your game as the rest of y'all appear to be. I figure that he has realized that he isn't going to grab the whole SRA and is trying to build something of a defensive line for when you return. I do wonder at why he hasn't cleared Borneo, however...
fair winds,
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Chickenboy
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
"No, you suck worse than you think,"

You're right. No sense in replying. [:D][;)]
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Schlemiel
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Schlemiel »

But the truly elite players of this game - the 8s and 9s and 10s - would have pushed forward and already eviscerated Japan. Where I took a cautious course, they would have been bold and, given their skill, would have succeeded.

There are too many nitty-gritty details about the game that I'm not interested in and that doesn't suit my preferences. You cannot be a top-level performer without doing and knowing the things I shrug off. I am good, but I am not great.

In what way, if any, do you believe these things to be related in your own self-analysis?  Do you believe you are more cautious because you do not know the "nitty-gritty details" (see your more aggressive behavior in this game now that you understand details better)?  Do you believe your caution to be an inherent trait that is separate from the details?  Did you choose to be more aggressive as a defensive gesture (make Japanese autovictory harder by risking and losing assets to slow that progress and buy you time)? 

I'm also curious about your analysis of your game strategy in this game and your relationship with strategy itself.  It seems to me that the strategy you chose for this game forced you to learn mechanics that you were otherwise (intentionally) unfamiliar with.  In your opinion, did your non-interest in learning mechanics influence your strategic analysis for the when and how you began your expansion?  That isn't necessarily a negative question, by the way, as considering yourself in your strategic analysis is important, and being aware of your own lack of awareness is important to avoid the forum favorite Dunning-Kreuger at times, it seems to me.  Do you believe you might have shied away from more aggressive strategies because you sensed on some level they would require you to learn yet more mechanics?  In you own self-reflection, do you think you have used your experiences with Q-Ball and now Chez to get "that kind of delicate balance between excitement and fear, and the challenge of coming back, is exhilarating" as a way to force yourself to learn things that only interest because they are necessary for your survival?  I realize these are probably leading questions, but I'm quite curious about how you see your own perception on that, based on what you've said.
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JeffroK
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
"No, you suck worse than you think,"

You're right. No sense in replying. [:D][;)]

At least he's an honest newspaperman, not many around.
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SqzMyLemon
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I hope you gents won't mind me being frank with you about my performance in the game as I see it. I am going to be honest about where I see strengths and flaws. No need in replying, because that will just devolve into a long, "No, you're really good," "No, you suck worse than you think," cascade.

I am not walking away from this match with an elevated opinion of my abilities. I don't think what I've done here would work against the vast majority of experienced IJ players. I've been most fortunate.

On a scale of 1-10, measuring a combination of experience and skill, I'd rate myself a 6 or a 7. The rating of any player who plays as the Allies is probably going to get a decent bump due to the inequities between the two sides. Taking that into consideration, a 6 is probably a better measure.

But the truly elite players of this game - the 8s and 9s and 10s - would have pushed forward and already eviscerated Japan. Where I took a cautious course, they would have been bold and, given their skill, would have succeeded.

There are too many nitty-gritty details about the game that I'm not interested in and that doesn't suit my preferences. You cannot be a top-level performer without doing and knowing the things I shrug off. I am good, but I am not great.

But I sure do love this game!

I edited your response CR, but well said.

I find myself, being a relative new player, always concious of what I'm saying to others and remind myself that my knowledge is limited and I really don't know all the nuances of the game yet. We all like to think we know what we are doing, but I've found this game downright humbling. It literally will take years of my life playing to improve, providing new situations against different people that test my skill and make me continue to learn through my mistakes or successes.

I think part of the frustration with the game is the sheer scope. You find an opponent, you set up your game parameters, you develop your strategy and off you go...turn one. Then through the course of the game things start going wrong, the "if only I'd done this instead" moments start occurring and then you're in real trouble and the game just spirals out of control. I think this happened to Chez, and as Japan, you really can't have many of these moments...even one can be a game breaker.

I'm sure Chez wished for a different experience, the nature of the beast that is WitP AE sometimes is just too big to overcome too many setbacks early in the game for some players, myself definitely included in that group. The time and commitment needed to improve game play is beyond the norm, it takes a real chunk away from RL to improve. It's unfortunate, but the sheer scope of the game often doesn't allow the average player to have a mulligan here and there, or a chance to restart to get things right, because that could literally be years of gameplay down the drain. I love the game too, but she can be a cruel mistress at times.

Just some thoughts.
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
Alfred
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Alfred »

For those of you who can I strongly recommend finding ChezDaJez's AAR which IOIRC was last updated about may last year. There in the first couple of pages you will find all the factors which accurately explain the subsequent developments in this match. Read ChezDaJez's outlined expectations and plans, the response to those expactations and plans from others (which include me and IIRC Nemo too) and there will be no difficulty in understanding the current situation. Combine those comments with a couple of other public posts made by ChezDaJez elsewhere and there is no mystery to unravel as to what the future holds.

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JeffroK
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

For those of you who can I strongly recommend finding ChezDaJez's AAR which IOIRC was last updated about may last year. There in the first couple of pages you will find all the factors which accurately explain the subsequent developments in this match. Read ChezDaJez's outlined expectations and plans, the response to those expactations and plans from others (which include me and IIRC Nemo too) and there will be no difficulty in understanding the current situation. Combine those comments with a couple of other public posts made by ChezDaJez elsewhere and there is no mystery to unravel as to what the future holds.

Alfred
Made interesting reading.
IMVHO, a lot of farting around the Aleutians, Sth Pacific and PI when he should have been taking the important points (which I think he listed in his opening plans)
Then he had too many unescorted TF or Bomber raids which CR managed to hit.
What I have found in a few AAR is the lack of support by JFB for their fellow JFB, at least to the level of help I have seen looking at various AFB AAR.
Its a pity he stopped the AAR, we might be (and still might) be celebrating a brilliant strategic plan.
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Alfred
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Alfred »

Speaking just for myself I follow many more Allied AARs than Japanese ones.

I find Japanese players to be generally less responsive to third party comments. Probably because they already start the game with pre-formed paln and objectives and set up their opening moves to achieve them. At best most of them only look to second phase objectives after the initial low hanging fruit has been picked. They really have no interest in preparing for 1944/45 and those who are so inclined, tend to be very competent and in need of very little third party assistance/commentary.

On the other hand many Allied players are inexperienced and lack a firm grip on the game's mechanics. Hit by the initial Japanese tsunami, they tend to be much more responsive to third party assistance/commentary, a bit like a drowning man clutching at anything.

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obvert
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by obvert »


What I have found in a few AAR is the lack of support by JFB for their fellow JFB, at least to the level of help I have seen looking at various AFB AAR.

Its a pity he stopped the AAR, we might be (and still might) be celebrating a brilliant strategic plan.
I find Japanese players to be generally less responsive to third party comments. Probably because they already start the game with pre-formed paln and objectives and set up their opening moves to achieve them. At best most of them only look to second phase objectives after the initial low hanging fruit has been picked. They really have no interest in preparing for 1944/45 and those who are so inclined, tend to be very competent and in need of very little third party assistance/commentary.

On the other hand many Allied players are inexperienced and lack a firm grip on the game's mechanics. Hit by the initial Japanese tsunami, they tend to be much more responsive to third party assistance/commentary, a bit like a drowning man clutching at anything.

I think 'players' in general, whether they tend to play the Allied or Japanese side, tend to read and comment more in Allied AARs. There are a plethora of fairly new Japan side AARs that get hits but virtually no helpful comments from anyone. It's too bad that more experienced Allied players even can't go in and give advice to the Japanese side, as I see a lot of players who primarily play Japan here and in other Allied AARs.

From my own experience, I feel that readers don't post comments even when direct questions or outright cries for help have been placed in the AAR. I know when I see comments on some of the Japanese AARs from newish players they are grateful and respond immediately to try to engender a dialogue. It seems that with the growth of the game, there are a lot of AARs out there, but most of the new player AARs get less attention, and particularly those by IJ payers, which is too bad.

Every time I go into a AAR I try to think, what difficult question could I ask this player, or what comment could I give from a perspective not already shown, so that even if i don't know as much, or can't help directly with the tactics or larger strategy, that I am somehow taking part in the process. Any comment can help. I for one would like the tough comments to come more often. 'You should do ... differently because ... .'

Or just an occasional, 'Hey, keep it up,' or 'Tough one.'

As for Chez, I think he stopped writing for several reasons, possibly because of the same time constraints that led him to several mistakes in game, but also because he has a specific view on how the game 'should' be played, and people were offering opinions that went against these self-imposed 'rules.' It's hard to keep it going when you know things are spiraling out of control, I'm sure.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Alfred
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Alfred »

obvert,

Probably also a factor that there are many more people prepared to paly the Allied position than the Japanese position. Naturally they would tend to populate Allied AARs to get a feel for what they may confront.

I hadn't particularly noticed a plethora of newish Japanese AARs. Would you care to nominate some worthy ones for me to drop in?

Alfred
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obvert
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by obvert »

I mostly mean players that consider themselves to be fairly new, or are doing their first AAR. Some that I find interesting are those by Erkki, vicberg, SqzMyLemon, koniu and andav that could use a bit more attention. Now, these could be more experienced players than i know them to be, but I just enjoy reading about their games and occasionally offering support, as I try to do with some of the newish Allied AARs.

Of course I try to read others by experienced players as much as I can, so probably I'm missing some that are out there as well.

Sorry CR for the OT posts here.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Alfred
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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Alfred »

Can't post to Erkki's AAR as i have been green buttoned by him.

Problem with Koniu's AAR is that I regularly provide advice on his opponent's AAR. Whilst not completely impossible, it is difficult to not inadvertently breach Op Sec when posting to both AARs.

Andav I believe is involved in a DaBabes match. As I don't have installed that mod, I would be unaware of the particular nuances of that mod. Same reason why I don't read his opponent's Allied AAR.

Vicberg I thought was in the same situation as Andav but I could be mistaken.

Which leaves us with SqzMyLemon. He has always struck me as being too modest regarding his AE skill level. Plus I thought he already received feedback from experienced japanese players. Oh well, I might have to drop by because I don't recall who his Allied opponent is and therefore I probably am not following the Allied side.

As to the temporary hijacking of Canoerebel's AAR. I wouldn't be concerned, I think he appreciates increasing his through traffic, no matter how accomplished, just to rival GreyJoy's AAR hit count.[:)]

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RE: Das darf nicht var sein!

Post by Canoerebel »

[:D]  (Thanks, Alfred!)
 
Lots of interesting comments.  I wanted to reply to Schlmiel's in some detail.  I hope I understood his questions so that my reply is responsive.  How would a truly "great" player have handled this game differently that I have?  Some major points:
 
1.  Thru native caution, born perhaps of comparative inexperience, I have been very conservative with my Sumatra garrison (and even, for a long time, my India garrison).  Some players would have long since deduced that both places were safe, or that they would be just as safe if the Allies used those garrison troops to push forward into Borneo, Java, Malaya or the Philippines.  (I think those players who have played both sides would have an advantage in accurately estimating opponent capabilities and proclivities; also, players that are very good at psychological analysis of their opponents have an advantage).
 
2.  I have declined to engage in some fundamental strategies that require alot of micromanagement.  With major Allied naval bases and airfields so proximate to equally major IJ installations, I could repeatedly set up major flak traps using my ships as bait and my aircraft as the hook.  But that requires a heck of alot of clicking - send ships here, set all these fighter units to LRCAP, if nothing happens stand them all down with various other CAP duties the next turn, etc.  (I might engage in that kind of detail - probably inartfully at first - in a game in which I was pushed, but I don't enjoy that level of management.) 
 
3.  In similar fashion, I haven't done the work to figure out where there are gaps in the enemy patrol arcs and then exploited those gaps with timely and unsettling (to the enemy) DD raids.
 
4.  Some players - the cream of the crop - are not just adept at employing every weapon at their disposal, but also finding new ways to do things.  I hope Nemo won't mind me using him as just an example (and it's possible that he got this from somebody else, but I don't think so):  In his game with 1 Eyed Jacks he used his subs to sniff out gaps in the patrol arcs and then sent DD raiders very deep behind enemy lines, not only doing significant damage but totally unhinging his opponent's psyche (not just through that one tactic, but the cumalitve effect of his smart aggression).  I can implement clever strategies, but I'm not the kind of player who knows the rules and mechanics and then comes up with new things.
 
 
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