Why it's nice to drive new vehicles...Panther G vs T34 combat testing...

[ComradeP]

Rifle corps being so effective against tanks is a feature of the current combat system that's less than ideal. Tanks don't have a chase phase post-combat and often don't destroy any elements at all (which is why this result surprises me somewhat), but infantry quickly closes in to 50 meters where tanks are more or less useless whilst infantry can destroy them at their leisure because tanks don't always try to keep the combat range at a range that provides an advantage to them.

The results are surprising especially for the T-34/85's, though, because the units are equal in everything but equipment, yet the Soviets still take very serious losses.

[Denniss]

If the experiment is from a 1:1 tank-to-tank combat situation without much combat support units around (rifle, engineer squads, artillery, anti-tank) then the result is not surprising - even the T-34/85 would have to come very close to kill a Panther. This is impossible with even numbers and on a plain hex with good visibility as the long-range Panther gun will kill most of them in the advance.
Results may be somewhat different will a full compliment of support troops.
An interesting result would be 1:2, 1:3 or even 1:4 situation for the Panther.

[Yaab]

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't Panthers have range advantage in clear terrain and clear weather over T34?

[Wuffer]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

This going to be very long thread.

thread or threat? [:D]

Memo: Whenever modeling a wargame, do NOT include an editor... [:)]

Or find some volunteers who would equilibrate the whole thing, I modestly suggest to start with pure rifle squads before adding single MPs and MGs...

happy new year

[Wuffer]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...
the results are surprising especially for the T-34/85's, though, because the units are equal in everything but equipment, yet the Soviets still take very serious losses.

hm, just make a quick verification and give the Germans the T34s vs russian (captured) Panthers...

who knows...? [:)]

[vaned74]

Gee, that would be interesting, perhaps I'll try it sometime. It might prove there is a conspiracy somewhere...

[glvaca]

Didn't you know? [X(]
The whole world is a conspiracy [:'(][;)]

[vaned74]

Well, unfortunately for all the conspiracy theorists if you give both the Soviets and the Germans Panther G's with the same experience and morale and leaders both sides perform the same - the defender does better than the attacker by about a 2:1 margin, probably b/c the defender fires first.

[randallw]

Looking at the stats for the two tanks the Panther's gun has more range, better accuracy, and a higher penetration rating; also the front hull armor is thicker.  I suspected as much ( I may have even looked at the stats a few times before this ).  Some of those T-34s are dying even before they get a shot off.

[Sven Juliuss]

My question is when you will see a 200 panther vs 200 t-34 fight and how often on 1:1 raport?
The test is incomplete, it should lower the panther ratio, step by step, till you will get a 1:1 losses raport between panther vs t-34 /41 , and also for t-34/85mm model.

The history notice this "The initial production target was 250 tanks per month at MAN. This was increased to 600 per month in January 1943. Despite determined efforts, this figure was never reached due to disruption by Allied bombing, manufacturing bottlenecks, and other difficulties. Production in 1943 averaged 148 per month. In 1944, it averaged 315 a month (3,777 having been built that year), peaking with 380 in July and ending around the end of March 1945, with at least 6,000 built in total. Front-line combat strength peaked on 1 September 1944 at 2,304 tanks, but that same month a record number of 692 tanks were reported lost"

so my big curiosity would be : "how many Y=panthers i need to counter X number of T-34, so Y=X in losses. Please complete the test and tell us the results