Am I the only one who feels the coordination strike is "a lit bit too much"?

[Bluebook]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
What part of the system ruined the game.

The part where 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position (lets ignore, like you do, that of 1200 fighters on 60% CAP, only 1/3 of those 60% are actually...you know...on CAP) attacks 300 bombers and 300 fighters and only manages to shoot down 7 fighters and 15 bombers in 40 minutes.

THAT is what you defend. While being both rude and condescending at the same time no less!

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

ORIGINAL: Alfred
What part of the system ruined the game.

The part where 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position (lets ignore, like you do, that of 1200 fighters on 60% CAP, only 1/3 of those 60% are actually...you know...on CAP) attacks 300 bombers and 300 fighters and only manages to shoot down 7 fighters and 15 bombers in 40 minutes.

THAT is what you defend. While being both rude and condescending at the same time no less!

Please try to get your facts right first.

Others have shown the correct numbers.

Alfred

[Bluebook]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

ORIGINAL: Alfred
What part of the system ruined the game.

The part where 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position (lets ignore, like you do, that of 1200 fighters on 60% CAP, only 1/3 of those 60% are actually...you know...on CAP) attacks 300 bombers and 300 fighters and only manages to shoot down 7 fighters and 15 bombers in 40 minutes.

THAT is what you defend. While being both rude and condescending at the same time no less!

Please try to get your facts right first.

Others have shown the correct numbers.

Alfred

The "correct" numbers are guesses and estimates, remember that.

But even using them, the system is stil flawed. 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position should shoot down more than 50 bombers and escorts during a 40 minute engagement.

[hades1001]

OK here is the most problematic morning wave. The whole combat info is attached.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 115,54

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 22
A6M3a Zero x 64
A6M5 Zero x 48
A6M5b Zero x 15
A6M5c Zero x 142
A7M2 Sam x 33
B7A2 Grace x 235
D4Y4 Judy x 34
J2M3 Jack x 48
N1K1-J George x 81
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 21



Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 97
F4U-1A Corsair x 330
F4U-1D Corsair x 129
F6F-3 Hellcat x 72
F6F-5 Hellcat x 555


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 2 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 15 destroyed, 32 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 17 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hancock, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
CV Ticonderoga, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CV Yorktown II, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
CV Essex, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CV Wasp II, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CLAA San Diego, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
DD Lang
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1
DD Preston II
DD Arunta



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 10000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
17 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
10 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
13 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
6 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
12 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
14 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
14 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
17 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
10 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
10 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
16 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
21 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
17 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
18 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
15 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-17 with F4U-1A Corsair (4 airborne, 16 on standby, 10 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
VF-40 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 13 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-1 with F4U-1D Corsair (8 airborne, 20 on standby, 12 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
VF-2 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 16 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-3 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
VF-6 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 17 on standby, 16 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 37300 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 37300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VF-7 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 63 minutes
VF-8 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 51 minutes
VF-10 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 60 minutes
VF-11 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 54 minutes
VF-13 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 27000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
VF-14 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 16 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
VF-16 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
VF-71 with F6F-5 Hellcat (4 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
VF-80 with F6F-5 Hellcat (8 airborne, 17 on standby, 17 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 27000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 27000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
VF-24 with F6F-5 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 9 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 58 minutes
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VF-30 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 15 on standby, 2 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 52 minutes
VF-50 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 7 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 21000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
No.834 Sqn-FF-2 FAA with Corsair II (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes

Fuel storage explosion on CV Lexington
Ammo storage explosion on CV Wasp
Fuel storage explosion on CV Lexington
Fuel storage explosion on CV Hancock

By examine the facts, we have:
84 fighters: airborne
303 fighters: standby
259 fighters: scrambling

and they have about 40 minutes to react.

What the number of fighters will you suggest is involved in this combat?

[hades1001]

And Greyjoy has 1183 fighters on CAP, 646 showed on this report, that's about 54% of total fighters on CAP. 60% CAP is already implemented here.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bluebook




The part where 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position (lets ignore, like you do, that of 1200 fighters on 60% CAP, only 1/3 of those 60% are actually...you know...on CAP) attacks 300 bombers and 300 fighters and only manages to shoot down 7 fighters and 15 bombers in 40 minutes.

THAT is what you defend. While being both rude and condescending at the same time no less!

Please try to get your facts right first.

Others have shown the correct numbers.

Alfred

The "correct" numbers are guesses and estimates, remember that.

But even using them, the system is stil flawed. 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position should shoot down more than 50 bombers and escorts during a 40 minute engagement.

Conversely it is just as 'unrealistic' to have dozens of pilots make 'Ace in Day' as is currenly possible in game. During WWII, AIAD was the extremely rare, exceptional pilot; in WiTPAE it is far too common. The number of aces for World War 2 is in the hundreads (counting all combatant countries), in WiTP you can have that many for either side by mid-game.

You complain about results that are (in your opinion) too few shot down, while I have seen battles that had (in my opinion) far too many shot down. In the end it balances out, one raid will be very successful, the next may be a total disaster. Toward the end game, it becomes skewed in favor of the Allies (not terribly unrealistic) to an extent, as the more capable airframes with well trained pilots are harder to overcome with raw skill of the Japanese pilots in obsolete aircraft.

[Bluebook]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
You complain about results that are (in your opinion) too few shot down, while I have seen battles that had (in my opinion) far too many shot down. In the end it balances out, one raid will be very successful, the next may be a total disaster. Toward the end game, it becomes skewed in favor of the Allies (not terribly unrealistic) to an extent, as the more capable airframes with well trained pilots are harder to overcome with raw skill of the Japanese pilots in obsolete aircraft.

No, you are wrong. By that logic a man with one foot in a bucket of ice, and the other foot in a fire should be perfectly content since it all balances out...

[Bluebook]

ORIGINAL: hades1001
By examine the facts, we have:
84 fighters: airborne
303 fighters: standby
259 fighters: scrambling

and they have about 40 minutes to react.

LOL, well thats a big issue right there. If I have 1200 fighters on 60% CAP, and only 84 are airborne at any given time, something is wrong, no? [:)]

But even using that figure, 84 Hellcats and Corsairs bouncing 200+200 japanese bombers and fighters for 40 minutes (not counting all the scramblers or standbyers joining the fight) should result in more losses than 15+7.

[hades1001]

According to Labaron it should be around 50, and I believe 50 is close, so let's use 50 here instead of 15+7=22.

So the CAP managed to shot down 50 Jap planes! what a miracle!

Seriously, i would estimate at least 300 Allies fighters(instead of 200 as Alfred claimed) have been involved in this fight.

Of course they won't stop such a large bulk of attackers(this is another issue, we can discuss it later). But 300 fighters only managed to shot down 50(at most) Jap attackers, which is around 7% of the total 700 Planes.

Does this sounds really reasonable to anyone?

And remember, Greyjoy and Radar are using a modified EXE which increase Jap plane lost, if you are using a stock EXE the Jap A2A will be even less.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bluebook




The part where 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position (lets ignore, like you do, that of 1200 fighters on 60% CAP, only 1/3 of those 60% are actually...you know...on CAP) attacks 300 bombers and 300 fighters and only manages to shoot down 7 fighters and 15 bombers in 40 minutes.

THAT is what you defend. While being both rude and condescending at the same time no less!

Please try to get your facts right first.

Others have shown the correct numbers.

Alfred

The "correct" numbers are guesses and estimates, remember that.

But even using them, the system is stil flawed. 200 Hellcats and Corsairs on CAP and in position should shoot down more than 50 bombers and escorts during a 40 minute engagement.

This is the second time you have asserted that it was a 40 minute engagement. A combat report never states how long a round of combat lasted. You are misreading the combat report.

It is also the second time you assert that 200 Hellcats and Corsairs where in position whereas the combat report shows only 3 squadrons were in position to get all the planes in position in time. The remaining in position ab initio CAP is provided only from aircraft already airborne, a figure which is well less than 100. Again you are misreading the report.

Then of course you totally omit the number of escorting fighters.

All things considered, for that initial round the few defending fighters which were in position to meet the enemy did quite a good job. In subsequent rounds as more fighters arrived, a much greater toll upon the enemy was exacted.

I direct you to the numbers breakdown provided by LoBaron in GreyJoy's AAR.

Alfred

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

ORIGINAL: Shark7
You complain about results that are (in your opinion) too few shot down, while I have seen battles that had (in my opinion) far too many shot down. In the end it balances out, one raid will be very successful, the next may be a total disaster. Toward the end game, it becomes skewed in favor of the Allies (not terribly unrealistic) to an extent, as the more capable airframes with well trained pilots are harder to overcome with raw skill of the Japanese pilots in obsolete aircraft.

No, you are wrong. By that logic a man with one foot in a bucket of ice, and the other foot in a fire should be perfectly content since it all balances out...

No, I'm saying that in any probability, you will always have results that are extreme opposites of each other. Most of the combats are in the average, but some will always be at either extreme. That is why it balances out, a skewed result to either extreme is possible and will certainly happen at some point given enough attempts.

The game is based on random number generator...it is by its nature random. Hence the occasional skewed result.

Air combat is not a simple 'flip a coin 100 times and find 50 heads and 50 tails' situation, there is a myriad of different factors that are taken into consideration. The result is that occasionally, all of those factors will come up 'positive' for one player or the other. It can not be avoided.

Also, lets take a closer look at the results you quoted.

Allied fighters involved 1183, Allied fighters lost 3.
Japanese fighters involved 474, Japanese fighters lost 7.

So in that massive battle, we can only come up with a total of 10 fighters lost? That is skewed in itself...that tells me one of 3 things:

1. The pilots are all really bad (or so good at defense no one can touch them).
2. The die rolls were either bad or outstanding all the way around. (the exception to the rule).
3. Not all the aircraft actually engaged. (I have no way to know this).

Unless I see this result every battle, it has to fall under the exceptions...that is the extreme category as opposed to the average. IF this happens every battle, then yes, the whole system would need investigation.

[hades1001]

That's exactly why I'm suggesting to put a upper limit on each wave of coordinated strikes.

Some times the random numbers just go too far and kill the game.

It's not the beauty of war any more, but an ugly disaster of probability.

An upper limit will keep the war random yet reasonable.

[hades1001]

And here is Lobaron's analysis, he indicates a 160-400 fighters joined this interception.
160-400 Allies fighters shot down only 50 Japs planes in the major combat.


Taking your numbers again this means:
about 160-200 fighters airborne
about 200 fighters on ready5 and probably within intercept time
about 200-250 fighters under service/turnaround with no chance to intercept
400 fighters with low readiness, probably much more than the 40mins required for successful intercept.

And all the suddenly, when numbers of planes decrease in the afternoon, the Allies fighters become much more effective, with almost no planes airborne, they managed to shot down almost 100 planes in one wave and protect all the ships? Look at this:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 114,56 (INVASION FLEET)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 38
A6M5 Zero x 38
A6M5c Zero x 48
B6N2 Jill x 33
G4M1 Betty x 40
G4M3a Betty x 18
N1K1-J George x 47
P1Y1 Frances x 18



Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt I x 15
P-38L Lightning x 101
F6F-3 Hellcat x 280


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 9 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 7 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 13 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 7 destroyed, 12 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
G4M1 Betty: 15 destroyed, 6 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
G4M3a Betty: 9 destroyed, 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 14 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Newfoundland
DD Walker
BB Mississippi
CL Birmingham
DD Halligan
CL Santa Fe
DD Witte de With
APD Bulmer
DD Relentless
APD Barr
CL Biloxi



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x A6M5c Zero sweeping at 14000 feet *
2 x G4M3a Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
18 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 14000 feet
16 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 14000 feet
9 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x A6M5c Zero sweeping at 14000 feet *
8 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 14000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-32 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Raid is overhead
VF-51 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 16 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VF-31 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
VF-32 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VF-51 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
No.800 Sqn FAA with Thunderbolt I (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-27 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
VC(F)-75 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VC(F)-82 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 28000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VC(F)-87 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
VC(F)-88 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 13 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VOC(F)-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 21 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
VRF-6F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VRF-7F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 20 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VRF-8F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
VMF-124 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Raid is overhead

The issue is the number of planes involved in the combat.

[GreyJoy]

Guys, let's not take this battle as the perfect "EXEMPLUM".
i am pretty sure i was victim of a very bad dice and roll here.
As Alfred and LoBaron clarified in my AAR (go and take a look - very interesting) i could have done better.
60-70% CAP (these were the percentage with the rest on non-assigned mission) isn't optimal. I should have probably set to 100% CAP (but i feared the 2 days-turn and the consequent fatigue levels)....and the result could have been slighly better.
But the fact is that here i did, imho, everything pretty well in setting my CAP...sic et simpliciter lots of those 60% of allied fighters that were supposed to be in the air were refueling/rearm (stand-by mode) right when the japanese strike arrived...and, among those who were airborne, the biggest majority was out of position (probably due to the altitudes bands i chose).
 
Bad luck. Simply that imho

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

And here is Lobaron's analysis, he indicates a 160-400 fighters joined this interception.
160-400 Allies fighters shot down only 50 Japs planes in the major combat.


Taking your numbers again this means:
about 160-200 fighters airborne
about 200 fighters on ready5 and probably within intercept time
about 200-250 fighters under service/turnaround with no chance to intercept
400 fighters with low readiness, probably much more than the 40mins required for successful intercept.

And all the suddenly, when numbers of planes decrease in the afternoon, the Allies fighters become much more effective, with almost no planes airborne, they managed to shot down almost 100 planes in one wave and protect all the ships? Look at this:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 114,56 (INVASION FLEET)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 38
A6M5 Zero x 38
A6M5c Zero x 48
B6N2 Jill x 33
G4M1 Betty x 40
G4M3a Betty x 18
N1K1-J George x 47
P1Y1 Frances x 18



Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt I x 15
P-38L Lightning x 101
F6F-3 Hellcat x 280


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 9 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 7 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 13 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 7 destroyed, 12 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
G4M1 Betty: 15 destroyed, 6 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
G4M3a Betty: 9 destroyed, 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 14 destroyed
P1Y1 Frances: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Newfoundland
DD Walker
BB Mississippi
CL Birmingham
DD Halligan
CL Santa Fe
DD Witte de With
APD Bulmer
DD Relentless
APD Barr
CL Biloxi



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x P1Y1 Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x A6M5c Zero sweeping at 14000 feet *
2 x G4M3a Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
18 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 14000 feet
16 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x A6M3a Zero sweeping at 14000 feet
9 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
7 x A6M5c Zero sweeping at 14000 feet *
8 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 14000 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VF-32 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Raid is overhead
VF-51 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 16 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
VF-31 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
VF-32 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VF-51 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 16 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
No.800 Sqn FAA with Thunderbolt I (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-27 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
VC(F)-75 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VC(F)-82 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 28000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VC(F)-87 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
VC(F)-88 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 13 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
VOC(F)-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 17000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VC(F)-7 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 21 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
VRF-6F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VRF-7F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 20 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
VRF-8F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
VMF-124 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 19 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Raid is overhead

The issue is the number of planes involved in the combat.

This was the LRCAP (partly from Hakodate and the Hellcats-3 from the CVs),not the CAP...two different hexes...here the combat is taking place over mt invasion fleet, not my CV fleet

[Pratzen]

This game is so broken. Not just under the water with the nuclear subs, but in the skies as well.

Over and out.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: Pratzen

This game is so broken. Not just under the water with the nuclear subs, but in the skies as well.

Over and out.

Thanks for your insightful thoughts, I am certain they help to improve the game.

[witpqs]

It was a very bad place and time to send a fleet. When it got there very bad things happened. Sounds realistic to me.

[hades1001]

Greyjoy, I brought this up not because only your experience.

I have done some later war carrier engagement tests and it ends more or less like yours. It doesn't matter you set 60% CAP or 100% CAP. You could have done better, but you won't save your fleet. Your whole fleet will be beaten up anyway. The only way to avoid such result is DO NOT ENGAGE ENEMY LBA WITH YOUR CARRIERS. Otherwise you are dead for sure.

I have run about 20 time tests and to be honest, 700 planes in one wave is rare, but even a pack of 200 fighters and 200 bombers will destroy the whole fleet anyway. It doesn't really matter. And guess what's the best result for Allies?

You divide your fleet into two equal half and put them in two hex at the same distance to the major enemy AF. This way the carrier losses will be much less and more Jap planes will be shot down. True story in my test.

[hades1001]

I know, but take a look how effective they are. Just because a small number of planes involved.

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

This was the LRCAP (partly from Hakodate and the Hellcats-3 from the CVs),not the CAP...two different hexes...here the combat is taking place over mt invasion fleet, not my CV fleet