Bwheatley vs abulbulian GC 1.5.18 beta (no abulbulian)

[Encircled]

If Bill has a personal situation with doesn't allow him to continue games due to time constraints or something, that is very different and ok. But to quit games just to play another because your opponent has a good start is wrong IMO.

He's toast, and his opponent has taken his foot of the gas to give him a chance. There isn't any point in continuing when your opponent has to help you out.

You take it as experience and make sure you do better next time!

Mind you, if you are still having fun, then its up to you!

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
And the rules say you need fort units to get to level 3. I have a lot of level 2 forts around that i want to take to the next level but 8 ap per fort was too much for my blood. I had other things i'd rather spend AP on.

Be sure to maximize this. Any hex adjacent to a Fort can get to lvl 3. Lvl 4 needs a Fort in the hex. So to get a line of lvl 3 you only need a Fort every 3 hexes, with other units in between. Also, Forts go down to 4 APs IIRC in Nov 1941. I usually start building my 'Stand-Fast Line' in an arc 5-7 hexes outside Moscow. Even starting on turn 1, it's tough to get much above lvl 3 before the Germans arrive, and they can usually push back a few forts just before mud. Attach all the Moscow area Forts to an HQ and load a bunch of Construction Brigades into the HQ to help dig. But don't rely on Forts: Rifle Divisions have to do the digging, Forts just get it up to lvl 3. You can use 'Digger Armies' in a similar fashion in other areas, or just pump a bunch of Const Bdes into a regular HQ to help those units dig faster.

Yea thanks! i noticed that too so my forts are spaced every 3 hexes away with units in clusters now to try to get things build up. I don't need to stop him cold in 42 but i do need it to be a more reasonable advance.

Thanks for the tip with the hq's for forts i didn't even think of that! I typically use RR brigades instead of construction brigades since the RR was a twofer (rr repair and construction value). Has that changed in a patch since launch day? I don't recall if it has.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: jzardos

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Don't go nuts on those forts. They are actually quite useless for doing anything other than preventing fort decay during the winter. You can't actually do much to fortify in poor weather now, the penalties are huge. If you haven't got forts dug in already, don't expect much.

As far as calling games go, my position is this: runaways aren't interesting. If a match isn't competitive and one side or the other is just being taken to the cleaners, it's completely ok for the loser to acknowledge this, throw in the towel, admit he's lost, and start over. Nor should the winner feel "robbed." If he has any sense of honor whatsoever, he'll actually feel embarrassed at how badly it's going for the other side and take the win. There's no need to humiliate the other guy.

Glad to see you trying to help Bill and not insult his intelligence or his opponents motives playing the game. There are people out there, which are friends, that like to play these types of game and also keep them interesting and going because it's such a huge time investments. But if both sides agree before a game starts that it's not until the end or some real life constraints, nobody should quit (before auto-vic). I'll always make that clear before I start games now, but still obviously no guarantees.

I'm glad Bill has seen the honor in playing on and there's nothing wrong with abulbulian being a sportsman and agree to some terms to keep the game fun. It's their game...

I agree not to go crazy on forts, don't build any new ones until they are cheap in Nov. Get lots of Sapper and RR construction units, and spread them out to each army in a zone with diggers.

Heh ara and I are friends IRL. I tend to be picky about who i play sometimes because I have on occasion over booked myself which results in burn out. To be honest i think ever single player i've played with from the matrix games forum have been really awesome people. Heck i might even be willing to play pelton. (just teasing you pelton). Speaking of pelton the most incredible thing about abul's advance to me has been he hasn't used a single HQ build up. In our last few games he used them quite a bit and i would always stop him dead by the rzhev bryansk line.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: jzardos

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I would be resigning here, tbh. And Abul gave you a break by Moscow, yes. He doesn't want you throwing in the towel, plainly, but you probably should.

I think this is a very poor attitude and it only leads to people quitting games way too early.[:(] I should know as I was in the same boat and a player quit my game just before winter. It was very upsetting and almost made me questioning ever playing against a human opponent. This is not the type of game given the huge amount of time invested to just decide to quit 20 turns into a 200 turn game. People that like to quit games should only play AI or stick to smaller scenarios. Luckily another player on the forum saw my plight and picked up the game where the other person left.

Personally I thinking the people claiming it is over are off base. Sure it was a good start for the Axis, but a lot can happen in the next 4 years. It seems Bill was able to keep his industry at about a historical level? With that said, manpower is something the Soviets will get plenty of each turn. The minimum I've received as Soviets when I was pushed back a lot further than this was 110,000 per turn. That's 1 million men every 9 turns! Let me repeat for some of you... 1 million men every 9 turns. This does not include all the Siberians and other units the Soviets get late 41. So they can grow back their army relatively quickly.

Also, historical loses for the Soviets were around 5-6 million at the end of 41, depending on your sources. So he's still under that.

But I'm very ashamed for some of the comments here about this game. As long as Bill is having fun playing on and looks forward to the challenge .. people should support him. So rather than give him advice to quit the game (like a quitter would [:-].. IMO) let's give him advice to try and turn this around.

In Flaviusx defence I have had 8 poeple drop out in 41 and another 3 in 42.

It is a game and if your not having fun then I have no problem with the other guy dropping out.

If you can gain something from the game keep playing if not then play again.

Have fun should be the goal.

Pelton

Yea that's true but you have to admit it probably is a bit of a bummer to you right? Don't you wish to see if you can hold off the russian bear until 1945? I don't get the soviet or the american in witp quitting. The axis player gets 1 or maybe 2 great years but then the rest of the war the allied player just develops such over whelming strength.

Playing defense as the axis should be really fun. I will probably take a shot as the germans eventually but they are the side that you can't make as many mistakes so it's a little scary to take the plunge.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
Thanks for the tip with the hq's for forts i didn't even think of that! I typically use RR brigades instead of construction brigades since the RR was a twofer (rr repair and construction value). Has that changed in a patch since launch day? I don't recall if it has.

Actually, I meant to say RR Const Bdes. There aren't any non-RR Const units. Only Sapper and RR Construction. The Const Bdes are cheaper (in armaments) to build, so I only build those in 1941. HQs give construction boosts of any Const or Sapper units to attached units, including forts. You can also attach Const or Sapper units directly to forts, but that's a bit expensive in admin pts to manage. I just keep them in the HQs.

I try to keep my digger armies as static as possible, as re-assigning forts costs admin pts after the first one (from STAVKA).

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

If Bill has a personal situation with doesn't allow him to continue games due to time constraints or something, that is very different and ok. But to quit games just to play another because your opponent has a good start is wrong IMO.

He's toast, and his opponent has taken his foot of the gas to give him a chance. There isn't any point in continuing when your opponent has to help you out.

You take it as experience and make sure you do better next time!

Mind you, if you are still having fun, then its up to you!

LOL i keep saying it and i guess people are not reading.
We talked about the moscow encirclement before it happened. He was not looking to take moscow he didn't want to lose it in the winter. We were both curious to see if the new updates changed encirclement and supplies. The up date said that previously HQ's were not dispersing supply properly to units trapped with it inside. With that we realized that if he managed to encircle moscow my troops should retain good fighting CV (as well as 41 troops can fight in forts). Moscow had tens of thousands of tons of supply and the hq's and front hq's were all inside the pocket and should have kept the units strong. That did not happen and the units once again became limp wristed. I lost 355k men in that pocket experiment. And even worse the rail being cut even after we freed stavka resulted in a lot of units not getting the proper amount of supplies elsewhere.

A lot of the reason we do things is because we want to provide data to joel and gary to help make the game better. If you don't experiment you will never have real data.

That said i think the game is far from over. I'm pretty confident i'll be able to provide a speed bump in 42 that should eventually let me transition to a 1942 winter mini offensive with a lot of ski troops that might hopefully setup a 43 spring that sees the final demise of the german offensive power.

[bwheatley]

T17

Northern Sector. We're just basically cleaning up the area the germans pulled out of with mud since his rail lines were not close enough. He did not want to be out of supply again this game.


Moscow and central front - Some minor skirmishes. I'm finally able to start a real line since the germans are at the peak of their strength. Abul tells me that he focused all his rail towards moscow and leningrad and his other troops do not have enough supply to push more.


South
We're trying to hold the don as our line by rostov. That would make a great starting winter line.


Crimea
After having our eastern approachs breached through a highly coordinated assault it seemed we were going to lose the whole crimea army. But through deft movement the army commander was able to save all but 2 brigades of troops. The general assures us that they are confident they will be able to hold this line through winter.

[bwheatley]

Pelton - btw you should add your HQ buildup strategy to this page on the community wiki

[bwheatley]

T18

OOB
As you can see the soviet army is growing by 150k a turn now. With fighting almost non-existent due to the mud we're taking the time to get all units with less then 70% of their TOE off the line to try to refit.
This process is taking the generals vast amounts of time to organize.


Moscow Rail
As you can see the moscow rail network is still being repaired slowly. Since we do not get dedicated rail repair units we have to hope that the 30 RR brigades in the area realize i want to get stavka reconnected to the rail network ASAP. As for people who ask why not move stavka back east to safety and get it back on the rail line. Comrade stalin did send the whole government to our siberian backup capital but he himself refuses to leave while the facist pigs are at the gates.


Central line
Occasional fighting but reinforcements are coming to the line every day and being integrated. They are helping dig anti-tank ditches and protecting our great nation.


South
Our stalingrad defenses have been growing. As has the defense of the south.


Crimea
The general in charge of the crimea has let us know fort construction is continuing at a brisk pace. He also said 3 pre-sighted artillery regiments have been positioned in the fort. He tells us he is confident that not only will the units survive he is confident in his ability to retake the crimea penninsula during winter.
Comrade stalin is excited about 1 spot of bright news. He has authorized a few cavalry divisions to report to the crimea and begin testing out a new cavalry corp. With some luck the general thinks we might be able to pin the german 11th army in a pocket by sevastopol.

[bwheatley]

T19

OOB -
Our army continues to grow turn by turn with new recruits who have been sent to the hinterland to train. Or in some more desperate cases to the moscow defense zone to continue building trenchs.


Production -
Our manpower pool and armaments pool continues to dip.


Losses by type


Losses


Destroyed Units


Air Losses

[bwheatley]

T20

5 Hexes to go to get stavka back on the grid.


South
A second line of troopers digging in to help protect the caucasus in 42.

[bwheatley]

T21
OOB -
The soviet army is finally larger then the mighty german army. As long as we can build up a manpower surplus through a blizzard that might be very localized as well as take less then 150k in troop losses per turn in 1942. We should be able to stay on top of the germans.


Production -
As you notice we're finally getting a bit of an armaments increase per turn now. It used to hover around 13k per turn and the last few turns it's been slowly increasing as factories were repaired and the new troops were equipped.

[Schmart]

I see that you have Zhukov commanding Lenningrad Front, your smallest and quietest Front. Surely he can be put to better use elsewhere?

[jzardos]

Not bad, 300 armaments seems to be decent amount after 41 is over? You should be able to move any others factories you want over the next several months, given there will be no Axis advances and you'll have plenty of spare rail capacity each turn.

With 100k manpower each turn, your army should build up fairly well before the German summer 42 offensive. The new attack mods for Axis attacking in March are a step in the right direction. You'll be getting the Siberians now until end of year, which are full tough units. The tough thing with the Soviets is the units are still relatively low in exp and morale even in late 42, especially the newer Tank and Mech corps. I would not use those until they have a change to build up their exp and morale. Very brittle units...

Glad you have a positive attitude and it does sound like you guys are having fun. Also, at the same time doing some exploratory testing for WitE which is fantastic to have a full campaign of this data for the developers. People need to understand that aspect.

[&o] [&o]

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Schmart

I see that you have Zhukov commanding Lenningrad Front, your smallest and quietest Front. Surely he can be put to better use elsewhere?

Very true! I never had the AP to move him until last turn. Then forgot lol. It's on my list of generals to move. I was thinking i'd just put him in stavka and hope he'll help with some of my rolls.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Schmart

I see that you have Zhukov commanding Lenningrad Front, your smallest and quietest Front. Surely he can be put to better use elsewhere?

Very true! I never had the AP to move him until last turn. Then forgot lol. It's on my list of generals to move. I was thinking i'd just put him in stavka and hope he'll help with some of my rolls.

No , Stavka is not a good place for him. IMO put him in an Army or Front HQ is what will utilize his rolls better.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: jzardos

Not bad, 300 armaments seems to be decent amount after 41 is over? You should be able to move any others factories you want over the next several months, given there will be no Axis advances and you'll have plenty of spare rail capacity each turn.

With 100k manpower each turn, your army should build up fairly well before the German summer 42 offensive. The new attack mods for Axis attacking in March are a step in the right direction. You'll be getting the Siberians now until end of year, which are full tough units. The tough thing with the Soviets is the units are still relatively low in exp and morale even in late 42, especially the newer Tank and Mech corps. I would not use those until they have a change to build up their exp and morale. Very brittle units...

Glad you have a positive attitude and it does sound like you guys are having fun. Also, at the same time doing some exploratory testing for WitE which is fantastic to have a full campaign of this data for the developers. People need to understand that aspect.

[&o] [&o]

Yea good idea about the mech/tank units. Sometimes i'm a little too eager to throw those t-34's in to blow some panzers up and they wind up getting routed.

[bwheatley]

Blah first turn of snow and our choke point defending kerch was overrun. It looks like the straits may fall after all. Elsewhere along the line only minor attacks. The panzers are nowhere to be seen.

[randallw]

The Siberians in this game as not as good as their basic reputation in history; the experience level is in the low 40's though the morale is better ( 60 ).

[delatbabel]

bwheatley, you are underestimating the strength of the German 1942 offensive. It begins in the first week of March and doesn't stop until the end of December, and there is even a late winter surge in 42/43. Only by that stage can you turn it around. It's also stronger because the rail heads are closer, and you don't have as far back to fall.

Your army has been reduced to about 3.6 million men, by this stage of the war it needs to be about a million more, maybe 1.5 million. You'll gain about a million over the winter, and lose about 2 million next summer. So you need to be holding shortened lines, not the entire front.

You're not going to hold the Don line or the Kerch straits in '42, nor are you going to hold Moscow or Stalingrad. You do need to look at fortifying that Volga line back between Yaroslavl and Gorky, and the lines north of Baku. You need to start on that now or you won't get time to do them in 1942, and fortifications build much more slowly in the winter & mud seasons, especially mud.

I wouldn't be bothering using 20+ RR brigades repairing the lines into Moscow, you need at least half of those back in the Yaroslavl/Ivanovo area to hold off the attacks there. I assume your rail network has most of your factories out, but you need to protect them -- if he starts overrunning places like Magnitogorsk or Zlaoust your game is over, and it's similarly over if he takes Baku.