Question about a Combat Report

[LoBaron]

Morning Air attack on TF, near Sadogashima at 115,54

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2 Jill x 66
J2M3 Jack x 22
N1K1-J George x 5



Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 97
F4U-1A Corsair x 330
F4U-1D Corsair x 127
F6F-3 Hellcat x 71
F6F-5 Hellcat x 547


Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 36 destroyed, 4 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Wasp II, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Yorktown II, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Illustrious, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Duncan
DD Lang
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo




This has been taken from Rader´s AAR, but in GreJoy´s AAR it looks exactly the same, so this made me aware that
it is not a copy/paste error.

Michael, is Aircraft Attacking subject to FOW too? Or is the the FOW on Torpedo hits this high?
Or is this an symptom of a bug?

Just wondering.

[michaelm75au]

Can't tell of a bug without save.

But hits are subject to some FOW, IIRC.

Also a hit doesn't always equate to damage. The 'hit' is registered first, and then damage if any is calculated.

[LoBaron]

Thanks Michael!

I am asking because - at least I always assumed - that "Aircraft Attacking" is not
subject to FOW.

So according to the above, only 5 torps were launched at all, but the combat report shows
11 hits, so more than double the number of torps actually launched.

If I rule out a bug (obviousely I cannot provide the save, this would have to be done by either GJ or rader)
then I can only come to 2 conclusions:

- Either FOW on hits is extremely high, which is strange because at least in my own games I never witnessed
an extreme deviation from hits registered in combat animations.
- Or "Aircraft Attacking" is subject to FOW too, and both FOW enriched data points add up - which is also strange
as base on my experience this number proved to be more or less reliable in the past, and also seems to be
in synch with combat animations.

[GreyJoy]

Do you need a save of that (terrible for me ) turn michealm?

[Alpha77]

FOW imo.

I believe I have seen simmilar things in my game[;)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

FOW imo.

I believe I have seen simmilar things in my game[;)]

but the really important question is which way is the FOW slanted?

were there really more than 5 attacking planes to account for the 11 torpedo hits or were there really less hits to account for only 5 attacking planes?

[Alpha77]

The receiving end of the torpedoes should answer [:D]

[michaelm75au]

You can post one.
I was only planning to do housework on Saturday as it has been raining off and on here.[:D]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Do you need a save of that (terrible for me ) turn michealm?

[michaelm75au]

More than just the 5 planes actually attack. I suspect that the post-attack air combat is forcing some of the attackers to be treated as destroyed which then don't count in the numbers.
I'll have a closer look at what is happening.

Yep as I suspected. The CAP torn into the Jills after the attack, and downed most of them.

The report should have something like 11 and 23 Jills respectively on those lines.

[LoBaron]

Thanks! [:)]

[hades1001]

so which part is subjected to the FOW? how many bombers launched torpedo? or the actual hits?

Or both?

[oldman45]

Assuming FOW, I am a little concerned so few losses to flak. Not ever reading the AAR in question I am assuming there were many escorts in the hex, these planes had to get thru all of them to attack the carrier. Since this is late war the Allied AAA boost (proximity fuses, radar etc) should have all kicked in. It doesn't appear like it.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Assuming FOW, I am a little concerned so few losses to flak. Not ever reading the AAR in question I am assuming there were many escorts in the hex, these planes had to get thru all of them to attack the carrier. Since this is late war the Allied AAA boost (proximity fuses, radar etc) should have all kicked in. It doesn't appear like it.

Its a scenario 2 game, not a DaBabes game. Therefore the special code hook which allows the different treatment of the American DP 5/38 guns isn't in place.

Alfred

[geofflambert]

I'm sorry, what are DaBabes and what is a DaBabes game?

[Alfred]

DaBabes is a mod (in several flavours) produced by the developers of AE but it is not an official Matrix issued scenario. It has several quite significant changes, one of which is a special code hook which addresses the problem of dual purpose guns. Without the special hook the full effectiveness of the 5/38 as an AA weapon system cannot be represented.

Alfred

[mikkey]

geofflambert, DaBabes scenarios and some information about them you can find on DaBabes WiTPAE site

[geofflambert]

Thanks, guys. But who needs AA anyway?

[geofflambert]

Sorry, trying to get the hang of this.

[michaelm75au]

Not FOW. The attacking numbers should be the number of planes that performed attacks, not the number that attacked and were still okay at the end of the combat.
Post-attack combat by the CAP shouldn't have affected these numbers.

ORIGINAL: hades1001

so which part is subjected to the FOW? how many bombers launched torpedo? or the actual hits?

Or both?

[Richard III]

Doesn`t it bother anyone that in stock scenario #2, 66 TB`s with 27 escorts, blew through *1200 CAP* ( likely staggered and radar controlled ) to wreck 5 late war CV`s ?[8|]

"Therefore the special code hook which allows the different treatment of the American DP 5/38 guns isn't in place.
Alfred "

Be that as it may Alfred, in the original 2x3 Games Billings/Grigsby WitP design the proximity fuzed 40mm was the big-time AC killer, just as in the real war.

As Allied ships with those AA showed up in late `42 to early `43, the game AI combat routines using dates, ( one of garry`s favorite design tools) rolled over into another set of CRT`s, reflecting the increased effectiveness of allied ship AAA. A simple yet elegant game design system, begun years ago with Pacwar, deeply tested and fine tuned, to reflect actual historic outcomes, while still allowing for the odd reasonably ahistoric result.