Deadly P-40`s at Manila?

[Richard III]

Could someone explain how, and perhaps more import, why these extreme results occured, with a nod toward the_ actual historic events_ in the air battles over Manila/Clark Field in 1941 ?
_________________________________________________
Dec 14 1941

Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 30 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes**

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17

Allied aircraft
P-40B Warhawk x 16
P-40E Warhawk x 18


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet

CAP engaged:
24th PG/17th PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
24th PG/20th PS with P-40B Warhawk (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 16000 , scrambling fighters between 16000 and 26000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
35th PG/21st PS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 7 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 24000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
__________________________________________________________________________

This was the elite Hikotai Air Group with all high 70`s to 80`s exp. pilots, 0 fatigue, launching from San Fernando. In the combat animation,which went on forever, they were all reporting "diving on target XXX** as they should since no Warhawks were Airborn.

BTW: Before someone calls "bad luck" Virtually the same thing happened in our ( redone because of bad game settings ) first game start. ( actual losses above were 7 AC, 3 pilots KIA, 4 MIA. )

[Alfred]

Why is this in the "tech support" sub forum?

Is a bug being reported, then identify it. Don't just post a result which in your view is not appropriate. Particularly when the full set of circumstances is not presented. Take this to the main AE forum.

It is not reasonable to overload michaelm with superfluous reading of people's unsubstantiated opinions.

If there is a legitimate problem, clearly identify it and provide a save.

Alfred

[EUBanana]

Outnumbered = bad.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Richard III

Could someone explain how, and perhaps more import, why these extreme results occured

Your Zeros (probably with a very aggressive commander) tangled too long against double the number of P-40s
with well stacked layered CAP and got handed a good one.

Please post this stuff in the war room, such results are easy to explain and are not result of bugs.

[Richard III]

It`s in Tech Support because that`s where the person with the most knowlege of the " AI Air Routines " lives, AFAIK.

I would have put it the "AE Air Issues and Air OOB Issues Forums" but since no one from the Air Team ( or any Dev. ) seems to be there anymore ( Dec 12 post by Pax unanswered ) I thought this was a better choice.

If you advise as to what " full set of circumstances" is needed, beyond what I posted, I wiill put it in the main AE Forum.
( or feel free to move it.)

Thanks.

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Why is this in the "tech support" sub forum?

Is a bug being reported, then identify it. Don't just post a result which in your view is not appropriate. Particularly when the full set of circumstances is not presented. Take this to the main AE forum.

It is not reasonable to overload michaelm with superfluous reading of people's unsubstantiated opinions.

If there is a legitimate problem, clearly identify it and provide a save.

Alfred

[Richard III]

Thanks !

I moved it, please take a look and go into some detail so I may better manage my Air groups in a hard fought PBEM ![8D]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Richard III

Could someone explain how, and perhaps more import, why these extreme results occured

Your Zeros (probably with a very aggressive commander) tangled too long against double the number of P-40s
with well stacked layered CAP and got handed a good one.

Please post this stuff in the war room, such results are easy to explain and are not result of bugs.

[Sardaukar]

What extraordinary is in occurance when outnumbered 2-1 and losing 5 vs. 2? That is perfectly realistic and normal outcome.

What probably happened is that P-40s were at 2 altitudes, Zeros dived against lower group and while inflicting casualties, were then bounced by higher alt CAP P-40s and lost 5 planes.

[pompack]

Especially since the sweep did not have an altitude advantage.

[Reg]

I am always amused by posts like this. Aren't older planes allowed to have a good day?? [&:]

Inferior performance does not mean absolute inferiority. This would be a boring game if it descended in to a paper, scissors, rock situation with Claudes and Buffalos totally incapable of scoring a kill especially if they have achieved a good tactical position.

Superior performance should quite rightly give better results over the long term but it doesn't mean they guaranteed to win every single encounter.

[wildweasel0585]

+1 great post Reg.
I don't know if it's just me, but i love having to use inferior planes.
PDU on just doesn't do it for me.
Claudes just plain suck every day of the week, but Kate's and Buffalo's can hold their own under certain circumstances.

Air combat is all about what the man in the machine can do.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: wildweasel0585

+1 great post Reg.
I don't know if it's just me, but i love having to use inferior planes.
PDU on just doesn't do it for me.
Claudes just plain suck every day of the week, but Kate's and Buffalo's can hold their own under certain circumstances.

Air combat is all about what the man in the machine can do.

Even a double ace won't do much in a plane that is hopelessly obsolete though.

It's a combination of man and the machine.

[btbw]

Zero not so good against Warhawks.
My rate for these planes - Zero 2.04, P-40B 2.30, P-40E 2.07.
You meet with 17 Zeros (2.04*17=34.68)
 16 P-40B (2.30*16=36.8)+ 18 P-40E (2.07*18=37.26)=74.06
Allied airpower 2.13 times higher (74.06/34.68). So you lost 5 planes, when they 2 planes.

[crsutton]

The early zero is not such a great plane. The p40B is 20 mph faster (speed is important in the game), more durable, has armor, and slightly better firepower and can out climb the M2 zero. The P40E is even a little faster, more durable, climbs like a pig but is much better armed. The real killer in the early going is pilot skill but later on the P40 is just fine vs all types of zeros. Your pilots were good but outnumbered by aircraft that were just as good if not marginally better. If you had two zero units in the fight instead of one, you would most likely had come out best. This is early war and you hold all the cards. Never give the Allies a break by giving them a fair fight...Also, if I recall correctly the Allied pilots in the PI were pretty good in skill levels at the start of the game.

More important. Be wary of jumping to a conclusion by one or two relatively small fights. Basically, the zeros will rule the skies for you during the first four to six months of the war.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Never give the Allies a break by giving them a fair fight...

This. Applies to every situation, every service, every time of war and every side.

Early war the Japanese don´t win because of the Zero, they win by enforcing numerical superiority. A large part of the myth of the invincible Japanese fighter
was created by outnumbered and outclassed DEI pilots.