Open Beta for v1.01 starts now

[halus]

Had the same thing happen, Russia attacked about a year earlier than the historical Barbarossa event.  All three Baltic states are independent and Germany was still busy with France - even with the original install with AI playing them it was always  after September '40 that Vichy govermet came into being.
Been playing as Italy and into June 1941 have still not collected enough PP to buy any research - too busy plugging up holes in troops and ships - gah!!

[JLPOWELL]

Re early USSR attacks.

I think that is a good thing. Human players will make better decisions (usually) than the 'figures from history' at least in terms of ''game strategy' (not having to contend with the real world our task is much simpler). An AI should emulate a human enemy not the 'historic figure' A human player seeing GE tied up in the west would tend to attack Germany at the 'worst possible time' if at all possible. The AI should do the same, perhaps they should be detered as a human would be by forces deployed against them (units in Poland withing FOW range) but not completelypredictably.

[freeboy]

so, with that logic, Germany could sue france for peace.. not invade poland and invade USSR through romania>?

[JLPOWELL]

Sure, but the best opton (with the benefit of hindsight of course) for Germany only requires setting the clock back a week, and simply not attacking anyone. Not much of a game, but clearly the choice that gets the best outcome for Germany, (almost any other option leads to a very bad outcome...)


Well there is no mechanism for suing for peace in this game... Perhaps there should be. Getting peace with France (After attacking Poland and before attacking them) would have required HUGE concessions (like give Poland back to the Poles and some demilitarization reparations etc.) remember France DOW Germany not the other way round. Up until the actual attack France and the UK were pretty confidant they could hold the Germans off and win thru attrition.

A German 'peace' with France and UK and it would take both per the allied treaty would have effectively ended the war not opened up the 'option to attack the USSR. And yes I know the French violated the separate peace provisions of the alliance agreement when they surrendered separately but they would not have been at all likely to have made separate peace if not under severe duress.

Germany should be allowed to DOW anyone but with political and/or economic costs. The some of the minors are way too weak in the game (Switzerland and Sweden are) but that is a separate issue.

But you are not comparing like with like USSR and GE were very likely to go to war. The key difference here is that Germany is already at war with France and UK at the start of the game. Not being at war the USSR had the option and could have attacked GE and I expect Stalin would have without any reservations if he thought it would work ( or work better than waiting). Look what he did to Poland. Both sides thought that the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was in their interest. I expect both intended to violate it when they were 'ready' Stalin just misjudged the situation underestimating the German military and got the timing wrong.

With perfect hindsight Stalin should have 'guaranteed' Poland at least until his military was built up But of course the Germans were building up as well so we could have seen a very different war starting in 1942 or so. Or who knows perhaps no WWII at all just an uneasy peace for all these years (Its pretty hard to imagine Hitler not crossing the line at some point he was not exactly risk adverse). The Germans would have been very unlikely to attack so the USSR would have got the time needed to build up their military. He likely wanted Germany to exhaust itself for a year or so against Britain and France then he could 'save the day' by joining the allies. (and grab the rest of Poland and much of Germany as well) This was the eventual result just not by his timetable. If it had been perceive that an early attack would catch Germany at a vulnerable time (as it would have) it is not unreasonable to assume it would have been made.

My main point is you start changing things and pretty soon you get a whole different history.

For this game and most of the genre the clock starts with the attack on Poland the further back you start the more players will skew the results.

Besides we are talking about players not the historical figures we should be free to chose different options. Perhaps good game design would build in 'costs' for some of these options to provide at least somewhat realistic constraints. Using the ToF game model effectiveness DP SU and WE are all factors which could be used.

Re a Russian early attack, in war and war games it is usually a good option which puts the enemy at a disadvantage. A surprise attack just in the opening weeks of the German offensive into France would catch the Germans in a vulnerable moment and might be worth the risk. That it wasn't done is not because it could not have been but was not considered the best option at the time. I expect the USSR expected France and Britain to hold out longer, or perhaps even defeat Germany, (not an unreasonable assessment in the last few months of 1939) Stalin wanted Germany defeated but was unready and thought he would have enough time to prepare (as in fact they did as they did defeat Germany) The idea (with hindsight of course) that a surprise attack by USSR would have been less effective than waiting for the German attack is not knowable with any certainty but is certainly plausible.

[aspqrz02]

The further back you go, the more uncertain everything should become.

Hitler was probably as surprised as his generals at how well Blitzkrieg worked against the Poles. So surprised that he didn't believe it would occur against a more formidable enemy such as the French, as indicated by the considerable debate over how much production capacity to divert into artillery shell production for the invasion of France and the Low Countries ... Hitler believed that the war would take far longer than it did, and orders for shells were, therefore, far higher than needed, and were dramatically cut back once France fell.

If you want to play "Not Hitler" then you should have about as much idea of what will actually work as he did ... damn all.

Give the "Not Hitler" player options ... several of them ... with no indication of which will actually work until he actually commits his army in the first combat. Maybe have Generals with a "Panzer Leader" attribute (hidden until first combat commanding Panzers) who are the only thing that gives even Panzer units the "Panzer Bonus" for attacks, for example ... make Not Hitler work by trial and error just as Hitler did. Up losses for Panzers that aren't being led by any general to force unpalatable but necessary risks onto High Command. Do the same for Mech and Infantry ... and probably Fighter, Bomber and Naval commanders as well.

Make Stalin choose between No Purges, and an increased risk of a coup against him, or various levels of Purges, and reduced (or maybe increased!) chances of a coup. Don't give the player minimal information on which to act ... make them make a stab in the dark just like the real leaders had to.

That would make for an interesting game ... especially multiplayer [X(]

Phil

[miki]

Hi gents

The L hotkey STILL doesn't work for airplanes. The clickfest for fully reinforcing air units is stil there...

[doomtrader]

yes, we were not able to do everything for the first patch.
However this is on our to do list for future patch

[ULTIMO]

Excellent game, absolutely better than TOW.

3 things.

1. German Strategic Bomber picture is an American B29!
2. Vichy event did not triggered yet, even if PAris, nAntes, Lille, Reims, Metz, Tpurs and CAen got conquered by Germany.
3. Winter War never happened

I dont know if the same happens in the standard game, as I have only played BETA version.

ciao ciao

[Razz1]

2) Check Reports/Events
Sometime France chooses to fight to death

VIVA LA FRANCE!

[freeboy]

Razz, when fightingto the death does Norht Africa come into play? If I lose all French citiess in contenental France and still control Algeria will my country fight to the end? or will it bail at some point b4
North africa nad Syria are controlled by the enemy?
thanks for the help

[Razz1]

I can't remember after a few beers.

If there is a Victory point in North Africa, then Yes, they need to capture it or France lives.

VIVA LA FRANCE!

[freeboy]

beers make good games bettter , as he slurs his sentances

[FieldOfGlory]

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

Re early USSR attacks.

I think that is a good thing. Human players will make better decisions (usually) than the 'figures from history' at least in terms of ''game strategy' (not having to contend with the real world our task is much simpler). An AI should emulate a human enemy not the 'historic figure' A human player seeing GE tied up in the west would tend to attack Germany at the 'worst possible time' if at all possible. The AI should do the same, perhaps they should be detered as a human would be by forces deployed against them (units in Poland withing FOW range) but not completelypredictably.

Hmmm. I don't think USSR should be able to declare war on Germany before '41 unless some conditions were met that might trigger an event.
Perhaps a possible event that would give the USSR an option to declare war on Germany after Vichy and attacks were made on some countries that are too close to Soviets that might make then nervous. Like Turkey. Or maybe an attack on Bulgaria after Yugo and Greece have already been taken out by Germany. Even then it should be an event that only has a possibility of triggering.
All the historical evedence sugest that Stalin pretty much had Zero interest in attacking Germany in '40

[ULTIMO]

ORIGINAL: Razz

2) Check Reports/Events
Sometime France chooses to fight to death

VIVA LA FRANCE!

No Razz. In TOW it is an automatic event triggered by the conquest of certain cities (the ones I listed, but not all). Victory Cities are for all countries, not for France.
Doomtrader can you please answer to clarify?
thanks

[doomtrader]

Once again I'm going to test the logic standing behind that.
Theoretically one of the following conditions should be met:

1.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
Metz controlled by Germany
Reims controlled by Germany
Le Mans controlled by axis
Tours controlled by axis

2.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
Lille controlled by Germany
Reims controlled by Germany
Le Mans controlled by axis
Tours controlled by axis

3.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
Metz controlled by Germany
Lille controlled by Germany
Le Mans controlled by axis
Tours controlled by axis

4.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
Metz controlled by Germany
Reims controlled by Germany
Le Mans controlled by axis
Caen controlled by axis

5.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
Lille controlled by Germany
Reims controlled by Germany
Le Mans controlled by axis
Caen controlled by axis

6.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
Metz controlled by Germany
Lille controlled by Germany
Le Mans controlled by axis
Caen controlled by axis

7.
Germany is active
France is active
Poland is not active
Germany at war with France
Paris controlled by Germany
10 or more cities (other than Paris) controlled by Germany

[doomtrader]

The event has triggered for me when I successfully accomplished option 1.

[ULTIMO]

So Doomtrader in TOF Le Mans replaces the role of Nantes in TOW, correct?

[doomtrader]

yes, indeed

[freeboy]

so we can prolong the war in france with poland not conquered.. I thought so.. makes the war in the west first a tough one. as poland dows germany if you attack France

[Dr. Foo]

I play AXIS and I keep getting attacked by USSR early June - Aug 1940.

Is there anyway to add an option that freezes all Soviet units until attacked or ensure the Russians will not attack before 1941?

For players trying to play as historical as possible it would be helpful to have the option. It is fun never knowing when or if an attack will come; however, sometimes I want to play an historical game.


Thank you.