Those Who Burn American Flags

[Missouri_Rebel]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd say that a fundamental building block of a democracy is that people can be morons like those clowns in Oakland without disappearing into some Gulag somewhere. Sure, arrest them for theft and vandalism, but that's it.

Oh, and about burning the flag? I say burn it. I've got two more you can burn. Go ahead. It's a piece of cloth. You can NEVER EVER burn what it stands for, no matter how hard you try.

Very well said Wise Bald One. Sometimes I need others to point out to me what is still good here in America. But I might add that most of these people probably wouldn't afford others the same consideration given the chance. I hope I am wrong about that one, but I don't think so.

[freeboy]

Puinishment does not mean " end up in the Gulag"... so civil dissobedience should and does carry a consequence..
My first gut reaction is.. hang them high.. but an over reaction methinks! lol
 

[Titanwarrior89]

Here comes Erik with key![:D]

[Missouri_Rebel]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: Max 86

Doomie said it best, "They don't have to love the country where they are living, but they should respect it."

I bet King George said the same thing about John Adams and that "gang".

These guys are nothing like John Adams who represented individual liberty and extremely limited government. They are the complete polar opposite of John Adams.

[Missouri_Rebel]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Here comes Erik with key![:D]

Well I hope not. My post should only infuriate those who would attack the police and destroy taxpayer property. I definitely don't want to upset my host at all. To be honest, I personally cannot stand politicians of any stripe. Heck, the only person that I know I will vote for is our very fine Governor Jay Nixon who happens to be a Blue Dog Democrat. But this isn't political as much as it is about current events.....and flag burning.

[JudgeDredd]

I guess someone knew something in 2003...

Just watching Dumb and Dumberer and the Japanese girls says "I just want to learn about America" - and the guy says "Girl - there's nothing more American than doing nothing and getting away with it"

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I guess someone knew something in 2003...

Just watching Dumb and Dumberer and the Japanese girls says "I just want to learn about America" - and the guy says "Girl - there's nothing more American than doing nothing and getting away with it"

Ahaha. Yes indeed, and the misguided bums of OWS are doing nothing. Well they are breaking some laws and being leeches upon society.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
Whereas Bear Stearns, Freddie Mse & Fannie Mac, AIG, Lehman Brothers and all those "100% Capitalist!" companies who striped the young Americans of their future (and sometimes were saved by the taxpayers money - you know, that kind of approach that is deemed "Socialist!" when proposed to cure people, but not when AIG faces the dire consequence of their mismanagement) are a symptom of... what?

Really, I'm not being political here. I'm simply amazed by people who scream pre-cooked "values" while being screwed behind their back over, and over, and over, and over, and over on the very same values.

I hate to pop your bubble, but the whole housing mess that caused all the trouble we are living through today is the fault of the progressive politicians who forced through bills mandating loans be given to folks unable to pay back or secure those same loans with any collateral, not Wall Street. Wall Street is guilty of greed sure, they piled on in a rush to make their billions, but the core cause of the disaster did not grow out of capitalism, it was due to a socialist agenda and the ideology of social justice at any price.

It was probably too late when the Bush administration finally made an effort to regulate things at Fannie and Freddie, but by then Frank and Dodd were in total control and they blocked all attempts to fix the problem. Everything that happened after that is a symptom of their failed social justice agenda.

The fact Wall Street used their massive political influence for bailouts and basically looted the coffers of the American public is a crime sure, I too want people in jail. But their power and influence is so vast and the political system here so corrupt, it would take someone of considerable fortitude to ever do anything about it. And I haven’t seen a political leader like that in decades, so don’t hold your breath.

Jim

Warspite1

Jim D Burns, imo it is a little more complicated than that. If you are a politician its easy to bash the bankers if your a banker its easy to blame the politicians. Fact is, we were ALL to blame - and while there were loads of individual reasons (and a lot of good people got burned), greed was chief amongst them. Regardless of what what the politicians decided to do, it still took a long chain of events to get where we got to:

- the homowner (or prospective homeowner) deciding to take out a mortgage/re-mortgage they knew they couldn't afford
- the broker, knowing the client couldn't afford it but wanted his commission, so turned a blind eye
- the valuer knowing he only gets to stay on the mortgage company's books if he provides "friendly" valuations
- the mortgage company that needs to increase volume massively because competition is squeezing his margins to the bone
- the bankers allowing looser terms to the mortgage companies so they get the chance to securitise the company's product
- the rating agencies getting paid by the client so not wanting to rock the boat
- the investors placing too much reliance on the agencies rather than actually doing their own diligence
- the hedge funds buying ever more sub investment grade bonds and taking more risk because margins were being squeezed
- the regulators having no idea what the hell was going on, and not having the balls and/or the inclination to dig too deep
- the government not wanting to rock the boat because there is an election coming up

Ywp, we are all to blame.

[Vincenzo_Beretta]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I hate to pop your bubble, but the whole housing mess that caused all the trouble we are living through today is the fault of the progressive politicians

...Like the congressional Republicans who joined Clinton in repealing the Glass-Steagal Act with the "Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999"...

who forced through bills mandating loans be given to folks unable to pay back or secure those same loans with any collateral, not Wall Street. Wall Street is guilty of greed sure, they piled on in a rush to make their billions, but the core cause of the disaster did not grow out of capitalism, it was due to a socialist agenda and the ideology of social justice at any price.

A delusional belief which is made even more funny by the fact that *the Socialists themselves* decried this policy as back as 1999, noting, correctly, how it would have resulted in an orgy of irresponsibility by Wall Street and some titanic bailouts.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov19 ... -n01.shtml

The Wall Street Journal celebrated the agreement to end such restrictions with an editorial declaring that the banks had been unfairly scapegoated for the Great Depression. The headline of one Journal article detailing the impact of the proposed law declared, "Finally, 1929 Begins to Fade."

This comment underscores the greatest irony in the banking deregulation bill. Legislation first adopted to save American capitalism from the consequences of the 1929 Wall Street Crash is being abolished just at the point where the conditions are emerging for an even greater speculative financial collapse. The enormous volatility in the stock exchange in recent months has been accompanied by repeated warnings that stocks are grossly overvalued, with some computer and Internet stocks selling at prices 100 times earnings or even greater.

And there is a much more recent experience than 1929 to serve as a cautionary tale. A financial deregulation bill was passed in the early 1980s under the Reagan administration, lifting many restrictions on the activities of savings and loan associations, which had previously been limited primarily to the home-loan market. The result was an orgy of speculation, profiteering and outright plundering of assets, culminating in collapse and the biggest financial bailout in US history, costing the federal government more than $500 billion. The repetition of such events in the much larger banking and securities markets would be beyond the scope of any federal bailout.

It was probably too late when the Bush administration finally made an effort to regulate things at Fannie and Freddie

...Exp. when they already hadn't a single clue from what had happened with Enron and Worldcom...

The fact Wall Street used their massive political influence for bailouts and basically looted the coffers of the American public is a crime sure, I too want people in jail. But their power and influence is so vast and the political system here so corrupt, it would take someone of considerable fortitude to ever do anything about it.

So, let's console yourselves by decrying UHC as "SOCIALIST!", the only small relief from this ugly concept you can get, since when WS needs it they get all the socialism they want - and bonuses. [:)]

And I haven’t seen a political leader like that in decades, so don’t hold your breath.

And your "democracy" is going to provide one... when?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
Whereas Bear Stearns, Freddie Mse & Fannie Mac, AIG, Lehman Brothers and all those "100% Capitalist!" companies who striped the young Americans of their future (and sometimes were saved by the taxpayers money - you know, that kind of approach that is deemed "Socialist!" when proposed to cure people, but not when AIG faces the dire consequence of their mismanagement) are a symptom of... what?

Really, I'm not being political here. I'm simply amazed by people who scream pre-cooked "values" while being screwed behind their back over, and over, and over, and over, and over on the very same values.

I hate to pop your bubble, but the whole housing mess that caused all the trouble we are living through today is the fault of the progressive politicians who forced through bills mandating loans be given to folks unable to pay back or secure those same loans with any collateral, not Wall Street. Wall Street is guilty of greed sure, they piled on in a rush to make their billions, but the core cause of the disaster did not grow out of capitalism, it was due to a socialist agenda and the ideology of social justice at any price.

It was probably too late when the Bush administration finally made an effort to regulate things at Fannie and Freddie, but by then Frank and Dodd were in total control and they blocked all attempts to fix the problem. Everything that happened after that is a symptom of their failed social justice agenda.

The fact Wall Street used their massive political influence for bailouts and basically looted the coffers of the American public is a crime sure, I too want people in jail. But their power and influence is so vast and the political system here so corrupt, it would take someone of considerable fortitude to ever do anything about it. And I haven’t seen a political leader like that in decades, so don’t hold your breath.

Jim

Warspite1

Jim D Burns, imo it is a little more complicated than that. If you are a politician its easy to bash the bankers if your a banker its easy to blame the politicians. Fact is, we were ALL to blame - and while there were loads of individual reasons (and a lot of good people got burned), greed was chief amongst them. Regardless of what what the politicians decided to do, it still took a long chain of events to get where we got to:

- the homowner (or prospective homeowner) deciding to take out a mortgage/re-mortgage they knew they couldn't afford
- the broker, knowing the client couldn't afford it but wanted his commission, so turned a blind eye
- the valuer knowing he only gets to stay on the mortgage company's books if he provides "friendly" valuations
- the mortgage company that needs to increase volume massively because competition is squeezing his margins to the bone
- the bankers allowing looser terms to the mortgage companies so they get the chance to securitise the company's product
- the rating agencies getting paid by the client so not wanting to rock the boat
- the investors placing too much reliance on the agencies rather than actually doing their own diligence
- the hedge funds buying ever more sub investment grade bonds and taking more risk because margins were being squeezed
- the regulators having no idea what the hell was going on, and not having the balls and/or the inclination to dig too deep
- the government not wanting to rock the boat because there is an election coming up

Ywp, we are all to blame.

Yes, but some profit from this and others do not.

I do however miss what this have to do with flag burning. I find it disrespectful to burn the flag. It may be that in allowing the flag to be burned US shows its greatness. But I do know that I do not listen to people who burn flags.

In Sweden it is considered disorderly conduct to burn the flag.

[2ndACR]

Not going to blame myself at all for the mess. I play the game fairly. Usually to my demise. Heck I own my own business and pay all the taxes I am supposed to without playing hide the money from the IRS. Have never shown a loss in any year, give my 5 employees full benefits with medical and I pay 75% of the medical ins cost. From them I get loyalty, that is about the only way I seem to stay ahead. It is expensive, but my employees even come to work off the clock when there is nothing to do. They hang out in the office, even help with paperwork, filing, truck inventory off the clock when it is slow.

But in no way will I accept blame for any of the housing bust. Not going to happen.[:-]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Not going to blame myself at all for the mess. I play the game fairly. Usually to my demise. Heck I own my own business and pay all the taxes I am supposed to without playing hide the money from the IRS. Have never shown a loss in any year, give my 5 employees full benefits with medical and I pay 75% of the medical ins cost. From them I get loyalty, that is about the only way I seem to stay ahead. It is expensive, but my employees even come to work off the clock when there is nothing to do. They hang out in the office, even help with paperwork, filing, truck inventory off the clock when it is slow.

But in no way will I accept blame for any of the housing bust. Not going to happen.[:-]

Warspite1

The WE is obviously a generalisation - its not personal; not everyone mortgaged themselves to the hilt; had to get the latest car/flat screen; had to have the most expensive holiday - fact was there were sufficient that did that caused the mess. If there wasn't then there would be no sub prime mortgages to securitise; there would not be enough sub investment grade paper to create CDO's out of; there would be no buyers for the paper even if there was; Lehmans would not have billions of worthless real-estate on its hands because there never would have been enough buyers for them to enter the market.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns




I hate to pop your bubble, but the whole housing mess that caused all the trouble we are living through today is the fault of the progressive politicians who forced through bills mandating loans be given to folks unable to pay back or secure those same loans with any collateral, not Wall Street. Wall Street is guilty of greed sure, they piled on in a rush to make their billions, but the core cause of the disaster did not grow out of capitalism, it was due to a socialist agenda and the ideology of social justice at any price.

It was probably too late when the Bush administration finally made an effort to regulate things at Fannie and Freddie, but by then Frank and Dodd were in total control and they blocked all attempts to fix the problem. Everything that happened after that is a symptom of their failed social justice agenda.

The fact Wall Street used their massive political influence for bailouts and basically looted the coffers of the American public is a crime sure, I too want people in jail. But their power and influence is so vast and the political system here so corrupt, it would take someone of considerable fortitude to ever do anything about it. And I haven’t seen a political leader like that in decades, so don’t hold your breath.

Jim

Warspite1

Jim D Burns, imo it is a little more complicated than that. If you are a politician its easy to bash the bankers if your a banker its easy to blame the politicians. Fact is, we were ALL to blame - and while there were loads of individual reasons (and a lot of good people got burned), greed was chief amongst them. Regardless of what what the politicians decided to do, it still took a long chain of events to get where we got to:

- the homowner (or prospective homeowner) deciding to take out a mortgage/re-mortgage they knew they couldn't afford
- the broker, knowing the client couldn't afford it but wanted his commission, so turned a blind eye
- the valuer knowing he only gets to stay on the mortgage company's books if he provides "friendly" valuations
- the mortgage company that needs to increase volume massively because competition is squeezing his margins to the bone
- the bankers allowing looser terms to the mortgage companies so they get the chance to securitise the company's product
- the rating agencies getting paid by the client so not wanting to rock the boat
- the investors placing too much reliance on the agencies rather than actually doing their own diligence
- the hedge funds buying ever more sub investment grade bonds and taking more risk because margins were being squeezed
- the regulators having no idea what the hell was going on, and not having the balls and/or the inclination to dig too deep
- the government not wanting to rock the boat because there is an election coming up

Ywp, we are all to blame.

Yes, but some profit from this and others do not.

Warspite1

Of course - but that is life - always was, always will be. What gets my goat is the notion that EVERYONE at the top got rich and EVERYONE at the bottom got screwed. It's just not true. There were people in all strata/classes - call it what you will - that gained and those that lost. Crazy, crazy times - and we are all paying for it now regardless of whether we think we contributed or not [:(]

[Perturabo]

ITT lot of people more butthurt about burning a piece of cloth than about breaking in to public property and vandalising it.

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
These kids today are simply a symptom of the subversion from within campaign the communists started long ago.

Whereas Bear Stearns, Freddie Mse & Fannie Mac, AIG, Lehman Brothers and all those "100% Capitalist!" companies who striped the young Americans of their future (and sometimes were saved by the taxpayers money - you know, that kind of approach that is deemed "Socialist!" when proposed to cure people, but not when AIG faces the dire consequence of their mismanagement) are a symptom of... what?

Really, I'm not being political here. I'm simply amazed by people who scream pre-cooked "values" while being screwed behind their back over, and over, and over, and over, and over on the very same values.

I remember a lot of people from all sides of the political spectrum being pretty pissed off about the bailouts.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

These kids today are simply a symptom of the subversion from within campaign the communists started long ago. Not sure if this video details it, but I’ve watched one of his lectures in the past where he lays it all out.

They really should have left them sealed letters labelled "Open if Soviet Union will fall" with little notes where they tell them that they were useful idiots and that they should stop. Such a lack of foresight.

[Titanwarrior89]

I don't like any of it-burning flags or vandalising public or private property. To me, its alot more than a burning piece of cloth. It represents a decaying nation from the family up to the nation's leaders.

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

ITT lot of people more butthurt about burning a piece of cloth than about breaking in to public property and vandalising it.

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
These kids today are simply a symptom of the subversion from within campaign the communists started long ago.

Whereas Bear Stearns, Freddie Mse & Fannie Mac, AIG, Lehman Brothers and all those "100% Capitalist!" companies who striped the young Americans of their future (and sometimes were saved by the taxpayers money - you know, that kind of approach that is deemed "Socialist!" when proposed to cure people, but not when AIG faces the dire consequence of their mismanagement) are a symptom of... what?

Really, I'm not being political here. I'm simply amazed by people who scream pre-cooked "values" while being screwed behind their back over, and over, and over, and over, and over on the very same values.

I remember a lot of people from all sides of the political spectrum being pretty pissed off about the bailouts.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

These kids today are simply a symptom of the subversion from within campaign the communists started long ago. Not sure if this video details it, but I’ve watched one of his lectures in the past where he lays it all out.

They really should have left them sealed letters labelled "Open if Soviet Union will fall" with little notes where they tell them that they were useful idiots and that they should stop. Such a lack of foresight.

[Gilmer]

I don't know folks. I'm from Polish immigrants (Grandparents) and I cried when the Berlin Wall came down. What does that have to do with anything? I don't know other than knowing that freedom is not anarchy and willful destruction of property is not freedom.

Some of the demands were pretty low brow like complete write-off of all student loans. I had a student loan and I paid it off myself. It would seem like a big "screw you!" to people like me who struggled and paid off their loans. There are also demands of the banks lowering the principal on house loans. But, the people who don't get this are the ones paying their loans. I bought small because I know what the standard is for buying a home. 28% of gross should be your payment.

Anyway. In my honest opinion, this is the end result of a "Me Generation". If you don't give me what I want, I'll protest and destroy - because they have already said the protests are moving towards true violence.

[JWW]

I have strong feelings about the original topic, didn't read all the stuff in between, and think this is the type political discussion that doesn't belong on this particular forum.  

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I don't care how many are US citizens, round them up and throw them out.

They can burn the flag, then they should set the max penalty for beating a flag burner at 10 bucks. There would be a whole lot less burning then. Kill a flag burner and you pay a 100 fine.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Pesky oath and Constitution.

[2ndACR]

I said that oath 3 times, twice active and once in the guard. Thank god I am a civilian now where I can voice my dislike for flag burners and people who spit on my country.

[Andrew Williams]

indoctrinated self entitled scumbags.

Sounds like your daughter is indoctinated

I did the same thing with the tech bubble years ago.

What a hero!

Disgusts me.

then get out!