Will it really cost that much?

[Von Rom]

Money, no matter how much you try to save it, will wind up being spent on something these days, whether its car repairs, taxes, bills, groceries, dental costs, etc. . .

And its a rare thing these days, to find not only a quality product, but great on-going support.

If you don't buy a lot of games (most aren't worth my time), and if you don't go to every movie that comes out (I wait for only the best ones), then $70-80 for a game of the scope of WiTP is only a drop in the bucket.

Just the fact a game of this type is even being made in this day and age, is a miracle. Especially when one considers the absolute garbage and the clones of "garbage" that garners gamers' money today.

WiTP - it will be worth any price; it's the gem in a pile of stones. And this gem will be playable for many, many years after it's been bought. . .

[Snigbert]

When you're buying a game, you're pretty much throwing away money and time on something that you don't really need and there isn't any kind of justification for spending the money. So once you've committed to blowing money on a game, who cares if it is $50 or $70? You're basically saying that having fun is more important than worrying about $50 you wont have each time you buy a game.

[Veldor]

Originally posted by Snigbert
When you're buying a game, you're pretty much throwing away money and time on something that you don't really need and there isn't any kind of justification for spending the money. So once you've committed to blowing money on a game, who cares if it is $50 or $70? You're basically saying that having fun is more important than worrying about $50 you wont have each time you buy a game.

At first I thought this sounded a little off, but now that I think about it more I think your really right. If you can't afford $70 for a game, then you can't afford $50 either. Millions pay for two to see a movie for the same price they could own it on DVD 6-8months later. And why not? That's the price of entertainment. You decide having fun is more important despite the cost.....

[demonterico]

I don't want to be glib about money, it is an important aspect of our existence, and its not that I'm rich, I'm just an ordinary working guy with an average family ect. ect. But I've got to say that in this day and age I don't think $80 is alot of money. Come on! Who out there can say that $80 more or less in their life is going to make a big difference. I don't know anyone who could honestly make that claim. As I stated in an earlier post this is a question of value. If one feels that owning WITP will not provide them with a valuable property then by all means one shouldn't buy it. After all, if owning WITP doesn't give the owner some benift then it would be a bad investment even if you buy it for $1. If you can go out and buy two $40 games which provide you with more value than WITP then by all means buy those other games instead. But, in the end you have to ask yourself which game will you play? Or maybe the question should be which game will you want to play? Which game will you want to play five years from now? Reading Von Rom's post reminded me of these thoughts. I believe the points he made are quite correct. The quality of the product, and the quality of the people who produce the product are paramont. The important issue is that we as game buyers must make thoughtful decisions about which game products to buy. It will certainly be true that $80 spent on WITP will be $80 less we have to spend on something else. But no matter where I go with this the question always comes back around the same circle, which game will we want to play? After owning UV I know the answer to that question.

[Veldor]

Originally posted by demonterico
If one feels that owning WITP will not provide them with a valuable property then by all means one shouldn't buy it.

YES, You do have a choice! There are plenty of other wargames and software companies out there... It's not like were talking about Windows where there isn't really any other option. If people will spend the money for the game, its because it is worth it. If its not worth it, people won't buy it.

But everyone here already knows WITP will be worth it...

So just be happy its not going to be $100 or $120, cuz most of us would still pay that.. but shhh don't tell Matrix that...

At some point I guess there is a limit, if for no other reason than principal, but I don't think the price at this point is out of line...

[Pawlock]

The main problem I think is, if they price it too high they will not attract new customers. After all Matrix is a buiseness and although dedicated as they are they still need new influx of players.

I tend to think a top price for a game such as WITP when it is released could be a major mistake. First off Matrix is still a small company and outside of "dedicated wargamers" virtually unkown. Not only that, by not only asking top price, they are probably not including a seperate manual/ maps etc that make games all the more attractive to prospective buyers.

Lets look at a theoritical example, say someone were browsing web/out in the mall looking for games and you picked up 2 wargames. One Top price( with no extra's ) ,other normal with extras's. Remember this guy probably aint even heard of Matrix up to now, so which is he gonna pick. I would imagine the cheaper model in most cases.


Anyway, its quite obvious that most of the posters to this thread are severly biased and rightly so to a certain degree. But this should not detract from the fact that they will be releasing a game to the masses at top whack, when there are other games out there ( maybe not Pacific War) that are far cheaper and in some cases just as enjoyable.

[Veldor]

In this case I really think both sides have equally good points about the price... I hate to give absolutes but I would say almost ALL UV players will buy WITP at whatever price... Is that good enough? no I rather doubt it...

Magazine/Website Reviews will probably be positive, that will help some... but the casual browser... The real tactic there if it were me is to load up stores with UV.. maybe a version 3.0 thats very like WITP just the sub-theatre version...

This is cheap, gets 'em hooked, and then they buy the bigger better more xpensive version the "Pro's" play...

But that's just what I'd do.. We'll have to see what Matrix decides...

[demonterico]

_________________
The main problem I think is, if they price it too high they will not attract new customers.
_________________

I have to believe that when Matrix undertook the task of producing UV and WITP they did so with the realization that their target market group was limited. Games with this level of depth, and detail require gamers of higher levels of skill, knowledge, interest, and available time. Lets face it, WITP is not a good game for the casual/occasional game player, or the impulse buyer just browsing in the game shop. This is a game for a dedicated wargamer. Now its been my experience that this is a small market place. But, it is a close knit market place, and in the age of the internet, it is a well connected market place. So I believe that the word will get out. Just read through this thread and you'll find plenty of comments on the quality of previous products. One thing about us wargamers we're not bashful about slamming something that we feel we got burned on.
You are right when you say that the people responding to this thread are biased. Of course we are, we are all UV players. We've already been to the mountain. Now its up to us to spread the word to those who we know are like us. Thats the best thing we can do as individuals to support Matrix, and thats the best thing we can do to help Matrix to continue providing the quality of games we want. In the end, a game that acquires a great reputation amongst gamers will sell as well as any, if not better.

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by demonterico
_________________
The main problem I think is, if they price it too high they will not attract new customers.
_________________

I have to believe that when Matrix undertook the task of producing UV and WITP they did so with the realization that their target market group was limited. Games with this level of depth, and detail require gamers of higher levels of skill, knowledge, interest, and available time. Lets face it, WITP is not a good game for the casual/occasional game player, or the impulse buyer just browsing in the game shop. This is a game for a dedicated wargamer. Now its been my experience that this is a small market place. But, it is a close knit market place, and in the age of the internet, it is a well connected market place. So I believe that the word will get out. Just read through this thread and you'll find plenty of comments on the quality of previous products. One thing about us wargamers we're not bashful about slamming something that we feel we got burned on.
You are right when you say that the people responding to this thread are biased. Of course we are, we are all UV players. We've already been to the mountain. Now its up to us to spread the word to those who we know are like us. Thats the best thing we can do as individuals to support Matrix, and thats the best thing we can do to help Matrix to continue providing the quality of games we want. In the end, a game that acquires a great reputation amongst gamers will sell as well as any, if not better.

I disagree to certain points you have made, based on my own personnal experiences, during the 80/ 90s when you had games like V for victory/ panzer general and the like , these were all games that were fairly widely distibuted and as such I bough many of these on an impulse buy.

I agree , wargaming as such is a small niche market especially in this day an age , but that doesent mean there are not plenty of potential customers out there that are wargamers but dont realize it yet.

Matrix has made a good start, but I fear if they overprice thier product it will alienate a lot of potential customers. Its all very well , most of us here would purchase WITP , maybe in my case as for me I have to consider shipping costs to UK probably if I want it when it is released. But can we alone keep Matrix afloat in the long run without an influx of new buyers coming in? I think not, and that Im afraid is why many small companies go to the wall eventually.

One point I made in my previous post, but did'nt elaborate was the fact although it is a small market, there is still competition out there.
Example , I just purchased and been playing a few HPS titles recently and believe you me they are good, indepth strategy wargames, BUT they are far cheaper on average than UV or the forthcoming WITP. A wargamer is a wargamer , some have certain preferences on the scope (ie land , air, ship ) but to me if I have the choice between 2 good but different games, I would probably go the cheaper option.

[byron13]

I'm an HPS fan, too. The difference, though, is that, for the most part, HPS is cranking out games using engines developed a couple of years ago. The Panzer Campaigns series, for example, has at least nine games using the same engine. They constantly tweak the engine to allow for limited new rules. The rules for each new game are identical but for limited additions. I have to laugh when I'm reading rules for Fulda Gap, and the graphics in the rules show Russian trucks or Arab somethings. All they have to do to put out a new game is lay in the map graphics and do OOB research; everything else is already done. (I'm not knocking it; I'm hoping they do a Market/Garden for Panzer Campaigns) Needless to say, their development costs for each game are minimal, and their profits per game sold must be fantastic. This has its drawbacks: I thought Fulda Gap was a huge disappointment, primarily because I don't think the engine developed for WWII games works for modern combat.

WitP, however, is being built from the bottom up. It promises to be a massive and intricate game. I'm sure Matrix has done studies to determine the pricing point for the game based on expected development costs. I'm sure they've also factored in market elasticity and calculated how many fewer games they'll sell at the current, higher price. I would guess they figure there is a good chance that WitP will have only limited distribution and they need to charge what they are to recover their costs and make a profit. If they're lucky, they've underestimated the copies they will sell and they will do very well (and probably drop the price). Until they break even, they've got to charge what is necessary to recoup their costs. Granted, UV supposedly is an already-developed game engine that will be used in WitP, but the increased scale and the number of additions to the engine (e.g., production, possible political rules, etc.) still make it very expensive to develop.

[Veldor]

Agreed, and as someone pointed out somewhere.. An impulse buyer who buys UV/WITP for whatever reason... Even if they are mistaken and don't end up playing it much, is still another copy sold and more revenue to Matrix.

Any publisher would do the same... ANY movie, ANY game no matter how bad someone out there LOVES it... So you can only make your product as attractive as possible to others, hope they all do genuinely enjoy it, but if they don't... oh well..

Thinking everyone that buys UV is a hardcore well-connected wargamer isn't reality. The last wargame I bought before UV was Close Combat 5, and that doesn't even count to some as its RTS. I use to play AH style wargames, and played the earlier generation computer wargames and some copied crap people gave me from time to time, but vastly got out of it as there weren't many turn-based computer games that I didn't find utterlly boring to play.. By some miracle I stumbled across the matrix site over a year ago and saw the lineup and said.. "This is what I've been waiting for"... But as Im not a FANATICAL member of the hobby, I never happened back, never even knew about UV or that it was released...

But I had kept the shortcut saved and found out anyways last december and promptly bought it... If Id seem it in the stores I frequent I would have bought it purely on impulse. Just the screenshots, and brief descript on the website was enough for me.. the box would have worked just as well.

And yes I also played Command & Conquer, Empire Earth, MechWarrior, Ultima Online, Medal of Honor, you name it... Just like lots of others I know who still play wargames on or off the computer... The notion that wargames are only for "wargamers" has and always will be bull#$@%..

Wargamers WANT it that way.. That way they can all feel smarter and superior to the rest of us

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by byron13


WitP, however, is being built from the bottom up. It promises to be a massive and intricate game. I'm sure Matrix has done studies to determine the pricing point for the game based on expected development costs. I'm sure they've also factored in market elasticity and calculated how many fewer games they'll sell at the current, higher price. I would guess they figure there is a good chance that WitP will have only limited distribution and they need to charge what they are to recover their costs and make a profit. If they're lucky, they've underestimated the copies they will sell and they will do very well (and probably drop the price). Until they break even, they've got to charge what is necessary to recoup their costs. Granted, UV supposedly is an already-developed game engine that will be used in WitP, but the increased scale and the number of additions to the engine (e.g., production, possible political rules, etc.) still make it very expensive to develop.

WITP will use as you have already stated the UV engine, this is a well known fact. Surely the biggest work of most games comes from developing this part? In fact (trying not to sound to picky here) you have already said this is what the HPS guys do, use the same engine ,with different maps and a few extra features. This is what WITP will be, UV on a larger scale with aa host of new features. So all that said and done I dont see a difference there between the 2 companies on that side, yet I see a price difference.

Slightly off topic, but to pick up on something I think Veldor mentioned about how some view Wargamers.

Now interesting thing here is if you break down the word into too seperate words and literally apply them , i would use this as my defination of a "wargamer" :-

Someone who plays games, based on the theme of war


Yet I see all too often how other members of our so called faction look down on others when they mention about for example , be nice to have good graphics, or sounds.

Anyway good debate, I'll get off my soapbox now

[demonterico]

First please allow me to remove my foot from my mouth and offer my apologies to Veldor and anyone else who may have been offended by my remark that WITP will be a game for dedicated wargamers. When I wrote that line it was not my intent to suggest that wargamers were in any way superior to persons that play other types of games. It is my belief that playing a game like UV or WITP requires a high level of interest in the game and the subject, which in this case happens to be war. There are dedicated and intellegent people involved in other areas of the gaming hobby as well.
I also want to say that I truely hope that Matrix can sell alot of WITP whether its to impulse buyers or casual gamers or little old grandmothers looking for that perfect Christmas gift for their favorite grandson. However, my gut feeling is that the majority of WITP sales will be to persons (Notice I didn't say wargamers this time.) who know something about what they want. Thats why I think its important for those of us who are already sold on the game to start getting the word out. This was the point I was trying to make.

[Veldor]

Originally posted by demonterico
It is my belief that playing a game like UV or WITP requires a high level of interest in the game and the subject, which in this case happens to be war.

This is an interesting way to put it but I wonder if others would agree. My interest in Battlefield:1942, Command & Conquer, & Close Combat are all also due to the high level of interest I have in war... But yet no one would call any of them wargames... So that same interest in war drives me to different types of games to experience war different types of ways...

I think the problem is, some play games simply to blow crap up, but others are drawn to those same games for other reasons, yet everyone just assumes its the same reason. Those that like other genres of games for reasons such as their relationship to war, tactics/strategy, resource management or micro management...etc.. may well love a game like Uncommon Valor. If you just want to see things destroyed, UV's going to bore you too death.. Many do play those other games for these other reasons, like myself... And thoroughly enjoy all types of games... I think there are more people like that out there than any "hardcore" wargamer realizes or wants to admit...

So I feel there is great "shelf" potential for a product like UV. You WILL sell more copies if you get it in front of people. You will get a great number of hardcore wargamers without it, but not the others....

As for WITP since its ultimately the same game, its really no harder than UV... But its X-times bigger... So Matrix would do well to make some smaller campaigns and scenarios.. so its manageable and learnable without having first played UV.. I desperately hope for a decent tutorial in it as well..

[Leahi]

If WITP is good, I'll pay any price -- almost literally. Mileage is the measure: If it's good enough to play for months and maybe even years, then compare its value to a nine-dollar ticket for a two-hour movie . (I live in Honolulu, so I don't know prices on the mainland.)

But if WITP is not good, then shame on Matrix. They've got the prgrammers and designers, they've read our voluminous input on this forum, so it should be good (albeit you can't please everyone, particularly in every detail, as we've seen with UV).

By the way, Pasternakski, it was good to see that someone else had good times with SSI's old stuff, and with the original War in the South Pacific, which I loved. At 62-years-old I've been getting used to no one sharing memories of those great games done with so little computer capacity. My 31-year-old son regards turn-based games as archaic. So it goes....

[Leahi]

If WITP is good, I'll pay any price -- almost literally. Mileage is the measure: If it's good enough to play for months and maybe even years, then compare its value to a nine-dollar ticket for a two-hour movie . (I live in Honolulu, so I don't know prices on the mainland.)

But if WITP is not good, then shame on Matrix. They've got the prgrammers and designers, they've read our voluminous input on this forum, so it should be good (albeit you can't please everyone, particularly in every detail, as we've seen with UV).

By the way, Pasternakski, it was good to see that someone else had good times with SSI's old stuff, and with the original War in the South Pacific, which I loved. At 62-years-old I've been getting used to no one sharing memories of those great games done with so little computer capacity. My 31-year-old son regards turn-based games as archaic. So it goes....

[demonterico]

Veldor,
I think perhaps the only difference between us is how we define the word wargame. My definition is rather loose. To me any game that involves combat is a wargame. You mentioned Close Combat. I own and love to play several of those titles, and certainly from my point of view consider them to be wargames. But this is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to suggest that its the right one. After all most fantasy roll playing games also have combat involved and I don't suppose most gamers out there would consider them to be wargames. But then again, whats an orc, if not just another ugly soldier?
As far as marketing a game goes I must admit that I have zero experience in that area, and will defer any actual decisions concerning this to others who undoubtedly know much more than I. I'm sure Matrix will do their best to sell WITP, and I wish them well.
By the way I've been looking for someone to play some CC online. Are you interested?
Dave

[byron13]

Originally posted by Pawlock
WITP will use as you have already stated the UV engine, this is a well known fact. Surely the biggest work of most games comes from developing this part? In fact (trying not to sound to picky here) you have already said this is what the HPS guys do, use the same engine ,with different maps and a few extra features. This is what WITP will be, UV on a larger scale with aa host of new features. So all that said and done I dont see a difference there between the 2 companies on that side, yet I see a price difference.

The biggest part of development is the engine. But Matrix is adding many more subroutines onto the UV engine than HPS ever has. HPS has four Russian front games in the Panzer Campaigns series. The differences between each of these games is minimal. Upgrading the UV engine for WitP will require considerably more work than all of the modifications to the Panzer Campaigns engine combined. UV's AI will have to be rewritten, production introduced, and Lord knows what else.

HPS's Panzer Campaigns are also a darned simple product. There is virtually no AI. WitP is more complicated at each level, and there are many, many layers to Gary's programming.

I guess my only point is that HPS has been able to spread its costs to develop a relatively simple engine over at least nine games and counting. Each of these nine games is essentially the same game with a different map. Matrix, on the other hand, will be able to spread its costs to develop a much more complex engine over just two games, and there was substantial development required to get from the first game to the second game.

Higher development costs spread over fewer units sold = equals higher per unit cost. Them's is the simple facts. From what I've read, I have no problem paying the increased cost.

How 'bout it Alpha testers? Worth the price?

[Mailer22]

Hi, it's me, the guy who started this massive thread. I had never followed up on it after posting, and was shocked to see it still on the front page of the forum.

My response to all of your comments?

I agree that Uncommon Valor is a game of the upmost quality, and my girlfriend had to endure hours of my praise about the detail that UV included. I flat out love the game.

But seventy dollar is just too **** much money to charge for it. Will I buy it anyway? Maybe, but seriously, maybe not. I own over 200 games and I shell out a large quantity of money for them, but there are other fantastic games out there that are massive works and labors of love, and they are not even comparable in price to the projected seventy dollar price tag.

Combat Mission 35$
Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin $50
Hearts of Iron (kind of crappy, but may get better with patch) $40
The operational art of warfare, century of warfare $10
Europa Universallis II $30
Tac Ops 4 $25
Railroad Tycoon $15
Sub Command is now $15 (this is a sad case, for such a wonderful game that recieved such poor sales)
Talonsofts World in Flames (covers all of WWII) $40
Operation Flashpoint and add ons $40-$15
Masters of Orion III (if it ever comes out) $50
Steel Beasts(produced by ONE MAN) $40
Medieval Total War $40

Not to mention the guilty pleasures like grand theft auto, global ops, and, hanging my head low with shame, battlefield 1941, all prices ranging from 20 to 40 dollars.

Gentlemen, I love your game, and I look forward to the next, but can we even negotiate a sixty dollar price?

Either way, I support your fine work.

[pasternakski]

Combat Mission 35$
Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin $50
Hearts of Iron (kind of crappy, but may get better with patch) $40
The operational art of warfare, century of warfare $10
Europa Universallis II $30
Tac Ops 4 $25
Railroad Tycoon $15
Sub Command is now $15 (this is a sad case, for such a wonderful game that recieved such poor sales)
Talonsofts World in Flames (covers all of WWII) $40
Operation Flashpoint and add ons $40-$15
Masters of Orion III (if it ever comes out) $50
Steel Beasts(produced by ONE MAN) $40
Medieval Total War $40

Okay, let's add this up. You spent $430 on this aggregate of crap and you are complaining about $70 for WITP? Smart shopper you ain't.