Empire of the Rising Lemon? SqzMyLemon (Japan) v Smeulders (Allies)

[SqzMyLemon]

Hi Chickenboy,

All good points/suggestions.

My plan is to mass submarines in waters I expect Allied amphibious operations to take place. Both for recon and to hunt damaged ships.

Bart doesn't cut corners. He's so averse to losses he escorts everything. I think the routes have loosened somewhat and he's taking a more direct path to his destinations, however these are covered by air and naval ASW. My subs simply can't penetrate the defences, and as mentioned, even when I do find something an attack is usually prevented/suppressed by naval ASW, or my torpedoes just plain miss.

I check SigInt every turn. The last TF information I received was "radio transmissions at xx,xx" which turned out to be three hexes away from San Diego, and included no information as to type of vessels.

This is one of the aspects of the game I really enjoy, submarine operations, and have put a lot of time and effort into it. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, I just go through the motions now. I've done everything I can, but the results are just not happening for me.

Even now, I'm positive the Allies are making another move in the Southeast Pacific. I'm picking up a heck of a lot of small ASW TF's and just know the bigger fish are out there. I've positioned my submarines to cover as much Ocean as possible in likely invasion routes. All I can do now is wait and hope I get a sniff of something before the Allies arrive at their next target.

I'm not hopeful. When the Allies invaded Tabiteuea, I had 5-6 submarines in the area. I vectored them to positions where they could interdict any number of Allied TF's. I didn't get an attack in, not one.

[PaxMondo]

My bar is a lot lower ... I don't expect them to attack. In fact, I position them so they won't.[;)]

When they trip something up, I either send kamikaze assets to confirm what's there (typically single PB TF's), or go in with "party" forces (KB, or a SurfTF). Particularly my Glen subs, I don't put in harm's way. I want recon from them.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

My bar is a lot lower ... I don't expect them to attack. In fact, I position them so they won't.[;)]

When they trip something up, I either send kamikaze assets to confirm what's there (typically single PB TF's), or go in with "party" forces (KB, or a SurfTF). Particularly my Glen subs, I don't put in harm's way. I want recon from them.

That's just it Pax, I don't get the intel to be able to make those kind of defensive decisions. I don't want KB having to react to every sighting and placed at risk of taking a fish from an Allied sub to only learn it was nothing. My Glen subs are on the periphery, the RO's and non-equipped Glen subs are the ones expected to strike at enemy TF's.

Anyway, one thing that definitely is a problem is Allied air search from Ndeni and Tabiteuea. They are picking up all my movements and make it hard to position SCTF's outside of DB range without being spotted first. Any SCTF that could be used to confirm any sightings or act as early interdiction forces are compromised. Tabiteuea and Ndeni may turn out to be more of a problem than I originally thought. I'm not sure what to do about them.

I'm learning intel is everything in this game. Next time I will grab all these outlying bases if for nothing else early warning of enemy movements. I'm blind while the enemy is seeing all my movements. Bugger it! [:D]

So I sit and wait. KB is primed at Truk and it's up to the Allies' next move to determine whether I can set it loose. I get a lot of ships back from refits in the coming weeks that will allow more options for countering anything the Allies may do.

Let me ask a general question for everyone out there. What is more worrisome in your opinion for Japan, losing the Marshall's or the Solomon's?

[PaxMondo]

My thought: depending upon when. You are Jan '43. Losing anything at this stage is worrisome for me. I'm still hoping to be above parity yet, so anything they take I hope to be able to take back with punishment. 9/43 things change rapidly with the Essex showing up.

I forget your IJN losses so far ... can you summarize for us?

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

My thought: depending upon when. You are Jan '43. Losing anything at this stage is worrisome for me. I'm still hoping to be above parity yet, so anything they take I hope to be able to take back with punishment. 9/43 things change rapidly with the Essex showing up.

I forget your IJN losses so far ... can you summarize for us?

I've lost the CV Hiryu and a handfull of DD's. That's it. Any potential clash between the Allies and Combined Fleet is most likely to be all in. The invasion of Tabiteuea was conducted by practically the entire U.S. Pacific Fleet.

I have 3 CVL's, 1 CVE, 2 BB's, 4 CA's, 6 CL's and 14 DD's at Singapore. The remainder of my forces are at Truk or the Home Islands refitting. Refits are all CL's and DD's. I have 7 CV's, 1 CVL, 8 BB's, 13 CA's, 6 CL's and 33 DD's at Truk. I also have a CA, CL and 6 DD's at Kwajalein. Give or take a few CL's and DD's off here and there, I'm just spouting these numbers from memory.

[jrcar]

Let me ask a general question for everyone out there. What is more worrisome in your opinion for Japan, losing the Marshall's or the Solomon's?

Solomon's... just.

The Allied real advantage in 1943 is the 4E bomber, taking the Marshalls doesn't help that much due to the small island sizes and they are easy to interdict... also ties down his troops.

In the Solomon's the allies can apply their airpower, mass their ground forces and do smaller hops, with risking their ships. And not much the Japanese player can do safely.

If you loose the Marshalls there is still plenty of sea room to bring stuff into and out of the SWPAC... but loosing Truk is a no no. Ponope and Kusaie make good outposts to protect Truk.

Loose Truk and you had better evacuate the SWPAC... back to Hollianda.

cheers

Rob

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Let me ask a general question for everyone out there. What is more worrisome in your opinion for Japan, losing the Marshall's or the Solomon's?

Solomon's... just.

The Allied real advantage in 1943 is the 4E bomber, taking the Marshalls doesn't help that much due to the small island sizes and they are easy to interdict... also ties down his troops.

In the Solomon's the allies can apply their airpower, mass their ground forces and do smaller hops, with risking their ships. And not much the Japanese player can do safely.

If you loose the Marshalls there is still plenty of sea room to bring stuff into and out of the SWPAC... but loosing Truk is a no no. Ponope and Kusaie make good outposts to protect Truk.

Loose Truk and you had better evacuate the SWPAC... back to Hollianda.

cheers

Rob

Thanks for posting Rob. I've mentioned about how I'm learning a lot from your AAR and I'm glad you've begun posting advice/suggestions here.

I'm thinking along the same lines about the Marshall's. They certainly can be used as a future springboard into the Central Pacific, but they are limited in what they can due locally. I've been fortifying both Ponape and Kusaie, so perhaps that will be where I make my stand.

With Combined Fleet intact, minus Hiryu, do you see any merit in taking on the Allied Fleet if they choose to advance further in the Gilberts and Marshall's, or would I be better served holding back and countering any moves into the Solomons. I see two benefits to fighting in the Solomons, My logistics are better, and I can bring substantial LBA to bear in support of the fleet.

I want a crack at the Allies here soon, it's just a question of do I do it in the Gilberts/Marshalls or wait for a move on the Solomons.

[jrcar]

Thanks for posting Rob. I've mentioned about how I'm learning a lot from your AAR and I'm glad you've begun posting advice/suggestions here.

I'm thinking along the same lines about the Marshall's. They certainly can be used as a future springboard into the Central Pacific, but they are limited in what they can due locally. I've been fortifying both Ponape and Kusaie, so perhaps that will be where I make my stand.

With Combined Fleet intact, minus Hiryu, do you see any merit in taking on the Allied Fleet if they choose to advance further in the Gilberts and Marshall's, or would I be better served holding back and countering any moves into the Solomons. I see two benefits to fighting in the Solomons, My logistics are better, and I can bring substantial LBA to bear in support of the fleet.

I want a crack at the Allies here soon, it's just a question of do I do it in the Gilberts/Marshalls or wait for a move on the Solomons.

You need to hold Ponape and Kusaie... otherwise Truk becomes untenable...

There are a couple of windows of opportunity. When Judy comes, when Jill comes, but before the Allied strength really mounts in mid-late 1943...

You don't NEED to defeat the Allied fleet though...

If you loose your fleet a lot of your options are taken away from you...

Defeating the Allied fleet is a nice bonus, but only if your fleet remains basically intact. You can do so if you can syncronise land and naval power... I think that is a bit easier to achieve in the Solomons, or when the allies go deeper into the Marshalls.

Remember the purpose, to defend the resource/fuel and their convoys as long as possible. Ground only matters for the advantage that it provides for that pupose. In the Pacific that means anything forward of the Mariana's is there to provide delay. Having an intact fleet will slow him down the most.

You are now playing for time... throw sand in his face... breaking his nose is also nice... but you can't knock him out.

Cheers

Rob

[SqzMyLemon]

Great way to put it Rob! [:D]

I'm so tempted to break away from my plan, but you've reinforced that I need to stick to it. KB as a deterrent is the way to go at the moment. Nothing on the map the Allies are threatening is worth possibly losing it over. I'll be posting more over the weekend on my defensive dispositions. A lot more early next week if the Patriots end up losing the Super Bowl. I'll be so depressed I'll need something to take my mind off football. [:D]

I like the throw sand in his face analogy. I'll try to be as much of a pest as possible to slow any advance in the Gilberts/Marshalls with as little as possible. In the meantime, fortify and garrison the main line Truk/Ponape/Kusaie/Rabaul/Lae quickly. With my current reorganization going on, I'll be able to set an actual timetable of PP expenditure needed to get as much AF support and extra ground troops into the Pacific as quickly as possible.

The amount of combat LCU's I get over the course of 1943 are mainly in China. I do get a lot of support units and those are what is most needed at the moment to get the forts and base expansions up into fortress type levels.

I just need to stay the course, and look for opportunities to delay.

[PaxMondo]

At this point for you, the allies should only be getting about 75 4E's/mo. All Flavors.

He's got Tabiteuea ... to me that means he's pointing to Marshall's as at lvl6 he should be able to support b-24's there. 17/21 range ... Kwaj is in jeopardy. You can't let that happen this early. Bad things for you ... he's too close too early.

Tabiteuea though is out on it own ... meaning there isn't another 5/6 air base within 21 so he can't support it with 4E coverage. Can you take it back? It's Jan '43 ... I would think it through. atoll size 60,000 ... prep 3 div take you 60 days... land 4/1/43 ... before he starts getting his CV's. If you still have Tarawa ... that's within Tojo distance .... When you're ready, move +200 Tojo's there and sweep and LRCAP your amphib force adn the island. Set your KB within protect distance. Get Emily coverage from Kwaj/Solomons.

He'll have to use CV's to stop you cause he is out of 4E support range. If he does, commit. Bring the whole tamale (Combined Fleet) ... it's early '43, still your time to win.

Or he will try to just make you pay and flood the area with subs. Bring fleets of patrol craft with you ... counter flood with your ASW forces and Jakes from island AV's.

He will know you're coming ... allied intel is just too good. Either way, there is a reaction. If you're ready, you can still pull this off.

He took this early ... so he isn't timid. I think he will react.

Hopefully some other will chime in .... this is just me. I hate to give up the offensive too early. BANZAI!!!

[njp72]

Good comments there Pax

I have only come to understand how tough it is to assault atolls in my current PBEM against Dennishe. If he has enough troops and supply on one of them with fortfications they are very hard to take. I failed with a 3 Div assault with prep and substantial bombardment.

I now let him penetrate into a position and then seal off the breach using surrounding islands. I then use subs, destroyers and air to attrit him.

Won't work forever but it is fun.

Cheers

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: njp72

Good comments there Pax

I have only come to understand how tough it is to assault atolls in my current PBEM against Dennishe. If he has enough troops and supply on one of them with fortfications they are very hard to take. I failed with a 3 Div assault with prep and substantial bombardment.

I now let him penetrate into a position and then seal off the breach using surrounding islands. I then use subs, destroyers and air to attrit him.

Won't work forever but it is fun.

Cheers

Good point, so maybe have to prep 6 divs ... 3 for first assault, and 3 for backup if needed. It IS hard to take these things ... but if he gets 4E's on this one ... you will have to commit so many assets to keep the Marshall's secure ... more than taking them back in my mind. Maybe not though .... needs to be thought through ...

[SqzMyLemon]

Pax,

I'm tempted to strike back at Tabiteuea as well, it is too early to allow this foothold. The timetable fits in terms of me being able to strike back, I have three divisions available for a counterstrike. I agree, he has stuck his neck out without an adequate support structure. Tabiteuea is on it's own.

I have nine days to come up with a course of action. I can either stick to the plan to defend farther back, or strike in an effort to give me more time. I'll weigh the suggestions and come up with something. The nice thing is, I can do either option. I am prepared to launch an attack or sit back and wait.

At some point, I have to take a risk. I just have to determine if this is the best one to try.

As I've mentioned earlier, SigInt/Allied ASW moves and my gut feeling point to another Allied operation happening soon in the S.E. Pacific. I just don't know where yet. I may have on opportunity to strike when I learn more, or the next Allied move forces my hand.

On a reality check Pax...200 Tojo's? I'm PDU off remember! I have a grand total of 85 until the IIb is available. One unit is in Burma, the other Lae. 200 Tojo's...I wish! [:D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

On a reality check Pax...200 Tojo's? I'm PDU off remember! I have a grand total of 85 until the IIb is available. One unit is in Burma, the other Lae. 200 Tojo's...I wish! [:D]

Ahh, that's right. Whew, good news for you! Means very tough for him to get 4E's here. He can't move his planes around either. [;)]

So, Tojo/Zero/Oscar mix is what you will need. Depending upon what he has there, Nates might even work at max DT range. They get 6 hex right?

Still, Rob had some points as well. Hopefully you can get some others to chime in.

It's just Tabiteuea can get AB to 6 and its about the only one in the area ... that's a problem. Means little to IJ as don't have any 4E's, but to the allies, this is key ... moreso than Tarawa which can only get AB to 5. 4E's established there, with supply and a div and high forts ... very hard to dislodge and they can control everything within 21 hexes in '43 .... nasty. Not saying he will be able to put B-24's there ... but he could.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: njp72

Good comments there Pax

I have only come to understand how tough it is to assault atolls in my current PBEM against Dennishe. If he has enough troops and supply on one of them with fortfications they are very hard to take. I failed with a 3 Div assault with prep and substantial bombardment.

I now let him penetrate into a position and then seal off the breach using surrounding islands. I then use subs, destroyers and air to attrit him.

Won't work forever but it is fun.

Cheers

Hey njp72, glad to see you following along and posting. I don't think Tabiteuea is an atoll though, it has a 30k or 60k troop limit...too large for an atoll I think? I thought of isolating Tabiteuea early as well by invading Baker Island and the Ellice Island chain, but I figured I'd never be able to build the bases up quickly enough to support my air or naval units and seal the trap.

However, Tabiteuea and area is still very isolated for the Allies. There is still a chance to do something.

Lots for me to think about.

[jrcar]

TB is an Atoll with 60,000 troop capacity.

At long range over time 4E will fall from the sky, if you have to use your CV forces to LRCAP a base from a hex on two out... do that once or twice and he won't come back.

Kusaie I think is the key, rather than Kwaj/Roi as they are too small.

PDU off I think is slightly better for the Japanese at this time of the war...

Counter invading is the Japanese doctrinal thing to do.. preferably with inadequate forces as you have underestimated the enemy... not sure repeating history's mistakes is the best way to play WITP...

He probably has a div on the place... attacking with 3 won't be enough to guarantee victory. If he has more than one... say plus a regt, or a couiple of those big defence units... and he'd be mad not to, you will not take it.

Use subs. Threaten with raiding forces (they don't even need to commit). Try to tie him down to defending the place... you don't need to take it back. If you get a couple of "lucky" sub hits though then you may start to create a tactical advantage that you can turn into an operational one. 50-50 odds is a loosing proposition.

Cheers

Rob

[njp72]

Yep that is what I try to do. Fully agree with jrcar's comments.

If you get lucky and take out a carrier or two with your subs it will guarantee to dampen an Allied player's enthusiasm.

One tactic that I try to use and occassionally works is feinting with a large surface force and then deploy in depth sub picket lines where he is likely to deploy his carriers if he takes the bait.

By late 42 early 43 you have to be devious......

[PaxMondo]

Rob and njp72 bring up really good points.  I don't know how long they've been on Tab and what your recon shows.  You certainly cannot fail in your attempt to re-take it.  You may want to review Pzb's successful operations of re-taking islands in his AAR.  He's done a couple IIRC ...

[SqzMyLemon]

Thanks everyone,

I stick to the plan. I wait for a chance to strike a blow on better terms another time.

Tabiteuea being an atoll closes the deal. There is at least a Marine Division and a CD gun unit on the island and they've been there for months. The initial idea was to isolate and starve the island and then assault it. I will not launch a direct assault against the island without having first cut if off from supply and reinforcement. The troop strength needed just doesn't warrant the risk. If I failed...I'd never recover.

Nope, I continue to dig in and re-deploy for the defence of my MLR as per the original plan. I have many more pressing needs than the defence of these island chains. If I do decide to move against the Gilbert's, it won't be a direct assault. It will be by isolation. I have some ideas how to effectively defend the Marshall's.

I'm going to try and get some recon on Ndeni and the Ellice Islands. I still think the way to defeat Allied forces on Tabiteuea is to strike behind them. More Allied troops committed to the Gilbert's without first building up the supporting islands may be an opportunity for me. No new CV's arrive until the Essex, and I believe that is still 5 months away or so. If I can get a lucky, a torpedo hit on a CV or two, that could open the door as jrcar and njp72 have suggested.

A lot can happen in 5 months.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
...There is at least a Marine Division and a CD gun unit on the island and they've been there for months. The initial idea was to isolate and starve the island and then assault it. I will not launch a direct assault against the island without having first cut if off from supply and reinforcement. The troop strength needed just doesn't warrant the risk. If I failed...I'd never recover.

+1

months = lvl6 forts. Rob is correct, I doubt you could take it. Would take 3 or maybe 4 waves of 3 div's each, and then still not 100%. I'd have to set up a test bed to see. Way too much resource.