B-17 supremacy

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: btbw

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Alot words sorry. My question dont touch how fight with LB.
My question why LB work like DB.
If you see AAR then easy can find similar order of attack like divers.
11 waves = 11 hits

2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
1 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb

They don't, as you can see. Hit ratio of 6% in this case is perfectly realistic, as explained by other posters. War is hell and people die. CVs get sunk. Deal with it like the generation that fought in those ships. It's not bug, just you have to understand military realities and stop whining.

People here are the most helpful folks ever to help you to understand how game works, but you are definitely not doing favours to yourself by accusing game mechanics to do things that about 99% of people on this forum (including developers who frequent here) KNOW is not true.

[denisonh]

Plauisible results given the conditions:

Partly cloudy
No radar
No heavy AA
Negligible CAP
39 B-17s (that is a signioficant amount of ordanance)
Very large ships at anchor
(With nothing to really disturb the B-17s, they could make some really good runs)

The only "bug" is your decision to disband your CVs within range of significant Allied 4Es.

[Puhis]

I think btbw does have some point. It's generally too easy to hit ships at port, especially small ships. IRL high flying level bombers were not as effective ship killer as we see in the game, like they were not airfield killer either. But it's not a bug, it's how game engine handles level bombers. I've sunk dozens of PT-boats and small crafts using level bombers. I'll bet IRL PT-boats or small minelayers would be extremely hard to hit in a big port. Now it seems that if there's any kind of ship at port, level bombers are going to hit them.

But I also think he got valuable lesson here: don't waste your precious IJN carriers fighting that south...

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think btbw does have some point. It's generally too easy to hit ships at port, especially small ships. IRL high flying level bombers were not as effective ship killer as we see in the game, like they were not airfield killer either. But it's not a bug, it's how game engine handles level bombers. I've sunk dozens of PT-boats and small crafts using level bombers. I'll bet IRL PT-boats or small minelayers would be extremely hard to hit in a big port. Now it seems that if there's any kind of ship at port, level bombers are going to hit them.

But I also think he got valuable lesson here: don't waste your precious IJN carriers fighting that south...

I don't believe it accounts for ship size in port bombing, so a lone PT or a lone CV disbanded in a port will have the same % chance of being hit. I guess things like maneuverability and such are just ignored as well, rather more intuitively.

However if you got a bunch of different types the PTs won't get hit as the engine will target the other ships first.

I guess, however, that an unarmoured and small ship would be wrecked by near misses quite handily so the really small ships suffering is probably fine.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: btbw

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Sir -

You do seem to have your undies in a wad.

Please seriously consider LoBaron's recommendation and find another game to play.

Respectfully,

Mac

Dont tell me what to do and i dont tell you where to go [:D]

We are not telling you where to go either, just suggesting that you go to the place of your choice.

[bradfordkay]

Yes, level bombers in the game have proven to be more accurate in their attacks on ships than they were IRL. There are other weapons in the game that are also slightly more effective in the game than they were IRL. There are also weapons in the game which have proven to be less effective than IRL. It doesn't mean that the game is broken or unplayable, just that finding the perfect balance on some weapon systems has proven to be difficult.

While the B17s and B24s on occasion seem to be nearly unbeatable in the game, they are present in rather limited quantities and so do not tilt the balance too far.

[Jaroen]

@btbw

Yes, those bombers were pretty effective. As they were in real life!
They did attack individual ships in ports! They did attack by individual planes and by twos/threes/etc. And they did hit. Not like Dive Bombers but with sticks of bombs like you mentioned already. Ships in ports are static targets. Never do compare such an attack with open sea conditions! And of course conditions per attack will vary. Luck, weather, AAA, recon, radar, air defense, crew status, and whatever. Also you should take into account that bomb hits don't mean major damage. The hit/damage-routine for bombing is giving relatively more hits, but less damage per bomb, compared to history. As you know, history proves that one bomb could easily cripple a CV. This happens less frequently in-game as it did historically. Take this into account as well! You also don't know about actual chances produced in your example. Would the same happen a 100 times? Were you lucky/unlucky? Be careful with drawing rigid conclusions from one example.

On a clear day, with experienced crews and good recon it wasn't too hard for the bombers to do an awful lot of damage on ships in port. They did! Google it, you will find examples. So don't think your result is a-historical.

In your example those bombers arrived over target just about together with the first fighters. I don't think the game really calculates it that specifically, but if it does it means all bombers had a first unhindered bombing run. From your example 9 bombers out of almost 40 got a hit. That's very good in my opinion though not impossible. But do realize what I said before, the game produces more hits and less damage with bombing. Look it up, it's mentiond by the developers someplace. So how much damage was actually done per hit/bomb?

And do you agree with evidence from historical samples that ports in range of enemy bombers were in extreme danger!?
What did you have in defense regarding fortifications, AAA, fighters and long distance warning systems (radar)?

From my own experience (playing the AI) I find bomber attacks very effective against unprotected ground targets. Only solid ground defense can lessen the effect very significantly. Such measures would be high level forts, good AAA, good fighter defense and good supply. If one of those fails, you're in trouble! I figure the Japan-players could easily be in trouble a lot of times if not playing exactly to the strengths/weaknesses of the game.

Good luck with the rest of the game.

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: btbw

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

Sir -

You do seem to have your undies in a wad.

Please seriously consider LoBaron's recommendation and find another game to play.

Respectfully,

Mac

Dont tell me what to do and i dont tell you where to go [:D]

Agreed, Sir.

You have your views and opinions and there has been a number of excellent comments posted; I have learned much from this thread.

I do hope that this challenge does not detract from you enjoyment of AE; and trust that you will work through it and continue on.

Mac

[Itdepends]

I hope he doesn't go looking for a PBEM partner or he may find his choices borked.

[btbw]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Plauisible results given the conditions:

Partly cloudy
No radar
No heavy AA
Negligible CAP
39 B-17s (that is a signioficant amount of ordanance)
Very large ships at anchor
(With nothing to really disturb the B-17s, they could make some really good runs)

The only "bug" is your decision to disband your CVs within range of significant Allied 4Es.

Really i dont understand how base can affect on ability of LB choose target and attack it individually.
Plese stop appeal to history when B-17 damage something. If you want compare with RL then provide example how B-17 attacks only flattops in port with evvectivness of dive bomber.
My opinion is game mechanics in that cause wrong and should distribute damages between ships with may be one flattop as main target and few close stayed or stayed on the way of raid.

@Jaroen
Targetting for raid of LB in port attack wrong. Despite on high accuracy during that bombing. Look into history facts - B-17 can hit AREA.

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

I hope he doesn't go looking for a PBEM partner or he may find his choices borked.

You mean he quits after 5 turns when someone does something unhistorical like bomb a CV in port? I would hate for him to see my AAR then, lost 2 brit cv's to betties bombing the port (800kg hits on both Cvs) - both took off from max range bases - and I had no clue he had buffs there, but then again I was trying to refuel to kick em out to sea - Darwin had maximum cap with 50+ fighters, but due to cloud cover and light rain the fighters couldn't find them.

Genuine mistake, I have the AO's following american carriers and I tend to have British carriers for raiding units or protecting APA's more then anything else.

/sounds like a disgruntled newbie that needs to take the time to learn some simple things about the game - like not putting a carrier in a port around any long range bombers period (this includes betties and Nells)

[btbw]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

ORIGINAL: Itdepends

I hope he doesn't go looking for a PBEM partner or he may find his choices borked.

You mean he quits after 5 turns when someone does something unhistorical like bomb a CV in port? I would hate for him to see my AAR then, lost 2 brit cv's to betties bombing the port (800kg hits on both Cvs) - both took off from max range bases - and I had no clue he had buffs there, but then again I was trying to refuel to kick em out to sea - Darwin had maximum cap with 50+ fighters, but due to cloud cover and light rain the fighters couldn't find them.

Genuine mistake, I have the AO's following american carriers and I tend to have British carriers for raiding units or protecting APA's more then anything else.

/sounds like a disgruntled newbie that needs to take the time to learn some simple things about the game - like not putting a carrier in a port around any long range bombers period (this includes betties and Nells)

Why you talking about CV? Problem not in CV but in wrong targeting ALL flattops. It definitely bug and must be removed from game. B-17 not tactical bomber.

[btbw]

Best bomb accuracy achieeved by B-17 was near 75% bombs in 300000 sq.m area.
With dimensions of japanese CVs we have around 75000 sq.m target area.
160 bombs give to us 3 hits in target.
But we have 8 hits in different ships (magically it flattops).
So game think all flattops stay together in bombing area and count all hits distributed between top-ships only.

[btbw]

Afternoon Air attack on Noumea , at 115,160
 
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
 
Raid detected at 24 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 16
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      B-17D Fortress x 3
      B-17E Fortress x 26
 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
 
Japanese Ships
      BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 6,  on fire
      CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 2,  heavy damage
      CL Tatsuta, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       1 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Airfield Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 13000 feet *
               Port Attack:  4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
 
CAP engaged:
Hiryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 8 scrambling)
      2 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 15000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
 
Okano E. in a A6M2 Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-17E Fortress out of formation
Koizumi T. in a A6M2 Zero makes head on attack ... forces B-17E Fortress out of formation
 
 

[btbw]

Again.
11 waves which target top-ships individually and scoring hits like dive bombers.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ring ring ring ring ring ring ring...Banana Phone.

[crsutton]

Yes, you have a point. I agree heavies are a bit too accurate. This is no secret just part of the game. It is not a bug though, just one more aspect of the game that you will have to get used to.

[YankeeAirRat]

Okay first off a couple of things to help me out figure some of this out.

1. Which scenario were you playing? Was it stock or was it a mod?

2. Do you have a save file from before and after to share with michealm to see if this is a true bug or it this is working as designed?

3. What exactly is the complaint you have? Is it that it appears that B-17's are are getting accurate bombing against carriers or that a B-17 in real life wasn't that accurate against ships in general?

****I am going to preface the rest of this by saying that I am in no way a designer, play tester, or in any connected to Matrix, Henderson Designs, or anyone else connected to WiTP/UV/WiTP:AE. I am just a prolific war gamer and gamer on a whole****

It appears to me that your failing to understand some of the game mechanics here. If you open up the stock scenario editor and look at and of the ships there is nothing giving dimensions of any ship. The only thing given to any of the ship class whether it is a carrier or a LCI is a durability rating and a tonnage rating. There is nothing defining its length, width, draft, or anything else like that. So to answer your question as to why a bunch of B-17's with sticks of 500lb bombs are able to get hits on your ships which are docked in port is just a bad set of "dice" rolls done by the computer behind the screens.

The game abstracts (and most Grigsby games do this since 'Eagle Day') the attack of a bomber against a large static target like a base/city/port/island and all the targets there. From my understand after many years of playing UV and vanilla flavored WiTP (along with Eagle Day and Bombing the Reich) is that the computer sorts all the targets based on whether or not the target is obsurced by weather/smoke, by how well scouted it is, and then in the term of LCU's size (which goes hand in hand with the recon levels). So that is why from my many years of observing attacks in the game that some LCU's get hit harder then others because they are larger in the sense of men and the game assigns them via some algorithm to represent a large target even though in real life they might be spread out all over the place in that city or base. At which while the game is resolving the attacks will assign a plane or group of planes per target. It will then resolve each attack for each aircraft; in the process of resolving those attacks the computer rolls the "dice" for each of the bombs to make a hit. If a hit is recorded then it is just for that one bomb. After all the bombs for that one plane are resolved the numbers of wx/smoke, recon, etc are adjusted for the next plane; it all then goes through the same process all over again. I know in some board war games, the math can get pretty complex to the point that having a computer spread sheet to help resolve a 4E bomber to make an attack helps speed everything up. The computer is doing those processing and that is why you see the report of the air raid and why it takes a while sometimes if it is a large raid against either a TF or a base to resolve because it is doing the same for each aircraft in the raid.

So it appears to me and as others have pointed out that you have suffered a series of bad "dice" rolls behind the screens by the computer. Which is why I would suggest that you maybe go to a save before the raid and re-run it. See if you get the same results. I would bet you dollars to donuts that you won't get the same results. If not that then you won't get as much damage as you did in this attack.

[Richrd]

I wonder how many times the Tirpitz was bombed before it finally rolled over. By the way, is it still there?

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: Richrd

I wonder how many times the Tirpitz was bombed before it finally rolled over. By the way, is it still there?

Some large parts of her are still there afaik.