Eastern Battles

[freeboy]

I counted in may like 41 armored divisions.. 15 upk, and numerous inf mobile divs.. they are all back area support

[FieldOfGlory]

Wow. That would be 15 UPK and 26 Armor with an unknown number of Mechinized Infantry. Most likely a lot more than the 4 divisions that the Barbarossa scenario starts with in '41.

I don't know if you guys are up for it but I would love to see a rematch with Germany on Hard level against all normal level USSR and Allies. I think for me it would be a decisive factor in the question of weather it is the UPK's that are causing the imbalance or the PP's that Germany is getting. I only say that because some of the people on here think the UPK's are historical accurate. I have to give them the benifit of the doubt.
I'm pretty sure that something, weather it be PP's or UPK's is causing the balance to be off in Human vs Human games.

IMHO

[FieldOfGlory]

And I wonder if Doom is paying any attention to this?[8|]

[battlevonwar]

ORIGINAL: FieldOfGlory

Wow. That would be 15 UPK and 26 Armor with an unknown number of Mechinized Infantry. Most likely a lot more than the 4 divisions that the Barbarossa scenario starts with in '41.

I don't know if you guys are up for it but I would love to see a rematch with Germany on Hard level against all normal level USSR and Allies. I think for me it would be a decisive factor in the question of weather it is the UPK's that are causing the imbalance or the PP's that Germany is getting. I only say that because some of the people on here think the UPK's are historical accurate. I have to give them the benifit of the doubt.
I'm pretty sure that something, weather it be PP's or UPK's is causing the balance to be off in Human vs Human games.

IMHO

Things are a bit different in this game than history. We started from 1939. All resources allocated to Barbarossa for FreeBoy and he attacked my shipping strictly. No wasted effort on Malta/North Africa/Sea Lion or any uberweapons... I have a great deal of Russian Armor. Massed I am not sure if it was at full readiness if it would have made a difference. I am pretty sure I had at least 150 mixed Russian Infantry divisions and corps at start of the Campaign near the end of Winter beginning of Spring. The Rails are important to bring up the Infantry to cover your lines when you start facing 3-4 deep Red Infantry... FreeBoy Was Brilliant in his attack Earlier than I expected. I could not get all my forces in place to defend or counter attack as planned. If he had waited till June and I had the extra time it would have been tougher for him but ultimately taking Leningrad and Moscow isn't very hard. We both have managed to do it ahead of schedule in every game we have played(if played out) and I can do it fighting the French and the Russian AI in April 1940

Definitely don't want to make The USSR too strong......but she needs some beta testing for balancing. I hope Doom is reading

[gwgardner]

Chocolino and I are starting a Case Gelb scenario now with all the majors on very hard level, with exception of Italy.

I agree that there are too many PPs from '39 to '41, otherwise.

[doomtrader]

I'm reading and paying attention on all of the above.
But as we are planning to release official 1.01 soon, so I would like to avoid further balancing of this aspect and wait at least till next patch with any changes to the Germans and Soviets.

[doomtrader]

Also regarding the tank losses, please remember that the soviet infantry corps has got more tanks than German armored division

[freeboy]

just a clearification.. 15 tank Korps AND 41 tank divs.. totalling 66.. I did run Barbarrossa, and while it was tough the first time as normal normal Germans the second time I over ran first Lenn, Then Moscow then the south then it was silly as the ai had too few of everything.. But they do counterattack...and get lots of troops to do it...
 

[FieldOfGlory]

Holy cow.[X(] That's just shy of 4 times as much total Armor as the the Barbarossa scenario gives the Germans and the Barbarossa scenario only puts 14 of the 17 total Armor on the Soviet border. The rest are in Africa and western Europe.

So you were able to beat the AI in the Barbarossa scenario (normal, normal) but the AI actually did put a little bit of a fight. Based on your experence in the Barbarossa scenario do you think a human vs human game would be a closer to balanced fight? Normal, Normal

If so... I'm thinking that 1 way to bring balance to the '39 scenario would be to slow down the German war rediness a lot more until war breaks out with the Soviets. Then jump it up through some kind of war with Russia event.

If PP's were in short supply it would force Germany to have to make great sacrifices in order to have more Armor than was Historical in Barbarossa. IMHO[8|]

[Razz1]

Remember Freeboy attacked Switzerland and captured it.
He also attacked USSR in 1940 ahead of the historical time frame.

There is no penalty for early USSR war. In patch 1.01 we discontinued the USSR penalty for early war.

However, wasn't this game started as 1.0 ?

If it was started as 1.0 in does not have the 1.01 patches.

[FieldOfGlory]

Hmmm.

I'm pretty sure freeboy's attack on USSR started in '41. It just started before the historical June date.

He did attack Switzerland, which would improve his PP's. But Switzerland was the only country that freeboy took before June '41 that was not historically taken by the Nazis. Swiss production would not improve German PP's so much as to be able to field 4 times as much Armor in Barbarossa.

[Razz1]

Look at the Baltics picture. That is in 1940.

I wonder if at that time they were in the USSR camp or independents.

I think they were independents. That means a few extra PP's, plus Greece.

Having the Baltics. Make Germany much closer to achieve victory, as they don't have to fight or move the distance to get to Lenningrad or Moscow.

The main thing is, I believe it was started as 1.0 game and it is still a 1.0 version game. Need them to clarify that.

[FieldOfGlory]

I agree.

Was it 1.0 or 1.01?
How much of the Baltics did Germans control?
What was the actual date that war was declared?

[freeboy]

ok USSR attacked in march 41 by event dow..
baltic was attack and then peace.. as we split closest baltic to USSR, one pp plus was the early comquest of France...
 followed by yugo greece etc...
Again.. do you want pix from my norma barbarrossa again ai normal.. and the ai gets cheets anyway so its not really fair to my human oponents to compare my vistories there to those against ai..
anyway.. yep.. built lots of inf level one mobile units and then converted them on the fly in france germany and poland... thats how I went from 20 plus armor divs to over 40! seriously

I WANTED to wait till June, as the muds slowed us down, If it was a June attack, then I would have both had better prep and dray ground for a truly fast blitz through to Lenn in the North and Stallingrad in south
As BVW stated, no one can stop a axis player on 1.01 beta... normal to normal... in any early war scenario... try it... seriously guys unballanced game alert

[rodney727]

I will take this bet. You axis hard. I will take all major allies on normal. I have a panzer killer strategy that you won't see comming.

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I don't consider myself a pushover either. Take a look at my AAR in the Slitherine forum. The Soviet AI did a job on me.

There are so many different ways to play each side. The AI, when I played, built almost exclusively infantry corps, and gave up territory like crazy until it could start deploying those corps. At that point I had my armor overextended and those massed corps were able to stop me about the time the mud season hit. I on the other hand, spent too much on research, didn't build many corps. My divisions against the AIs corps? No go.

My point is, your experience and reports are great, and I hope Wastelands takes them into account in trying to resolve the issue of super panzers, especially, but I don't think the game is hopelessly unbalanced re Barbarossa.

I beg to differ. So much so that I will give you the Reds to play, I will take the Germans... I dare you to employ such a strategy... ( I will also go a level up in difficulty )

FreeBoy attempted a similar strategy against me as you state The Soviet AI used. If you would like to see the screenshots, They're worse than this... All my UPKs are 90+... Here at least, I have managed to fight back... Between France/USSR I may have killed 7 or 8 divisions... He managed to kill 2-3 vs me.

When this game is over I may manage to kill a dozen German Divisions. I am pleased at the outcome!

[freeboy]

Anyway.. good luck to each.. but let us know in an aar if you do play

[FieldOfGlory]

Yes! AAR

I want to see an AAR with Germany on hard against normal Allies, Please...

[battlevonwar]

Rogo, PM sent. Challenge accepted

[freeboy]

my money is on BVW....

[JLPOWELL]

GE hard vrs all opponents normal is certainly closer to a fair balance than normal vrs normal as the game stands. I think I would take either side in that battle (still leaning toward Germany if I had to pick). A BIG factor is the cash prizes you get for conquest as Germany. As big or bigger a factor as the difficulty level. The conquest treasure can add up to over 2000 PP !!!!! that is HUGE. The conquest treasure events give the game a fantasy feel more than just about anything else. Capture resources and factories... sure, but the giant instant production boosts skew the game considerably.

Still may be worth a try. I am waiting on the patch before starting another game but this is worth consideration. An alternative is removal of all the treasure quest events (or dividing the loot by 10), which is a pretty easy mod.