OT: Russian carrier Admiral Kusnetsov

[whippleofd]

If I've stepped on your feelings, I'm sorry. You are right , I wasn't there. I rely on histories and battle reports. So please, correct my oversights and let us know what really happened. I know that I'd be greatful.

AW1:

This was a professional critique not a personal one. Therefore there were no feelings involved, only "facts" that needed addressing. They were addressed because if the "facts" of history are repeated often and loud enough they become accepted. I submit for your consideration Fuchida and the battle of Midway.

Again, have a very fine Navy day
MMCS

[whippleofd]

Keep your horrors to yourself, senior

I have every intention of doing so. For those who haven't experienced it, no explanation will suffice. For those who have, none is needed.

[Durbik]

sorry I didn't bother to read all of the thread, but did someone mention that it's turbines are crap and faulty?

[AW1Steve]

http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/sep_03_45.php

http://www.navybook.com/nohigherhonor/p ... ntis.shtml

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... mantis.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Praying_Mantis

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedin ... rface-view

Here are a few accounts, some very reputable such as USNI , some not so much such as Wikipedia. Where did I misrepresent the facts? If I did , again I apologize. Again, All I can go on are reports, articles , and books I've read , and a few of the people I had the chance to talk to. I'd like very much to hear the corrected story.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Whipple

If I've stepped on your feelings, I'm sorry. You are right , I wasn't there. I rely on histories and battle reports. So please, correct my oversights and let us know what really happened. I know that I'd be greatful.

AW1:

This was a professional critique not a personal one. Therefore there were no feelings involved, only "facts" that needed addressing. They were addressed because if the "facts" of history are repeated often and loud enough they become accepted. I submit for your consideration Fuchida and the battle of Midway.

Again, have a very fine Navy day
MMCS

What aspects to Fuchida and Midway are you referring to? One thing I've learned from doing oral histories and interviews is that you can have four different people witness the same incident and give four different views. None of them necessarily wrong , just from a different perspective , with different amount of imformation. I once interviewed a surviovor of the Gambier bay who spent the action (and sinking) in axillary steering. His perspective was considerably different from a 20mm gunner , and both different than a TBM gunner. They might have been describing different wars, let alone the same battle.

[vettim89]

Fololwed the USNI link. Possibly one of the funniest things I have ever read: The contact turned out to be a Soviet Sovremennyy-classDDG. The skipper, when asked his intention, replied with a heavy accent, "I vant to take peectures for heestory."

[khyberbill]

I have heard the subs in operation today have the ability to sneak undetected w/in torp range of any CVBG and place torps into the screws of any capitol ship. So I figure the CV will go the path of the BB. I expect this to happen w/ in the next 3/4 years.

The US has had that capability for a long time with their nuc subs. Diesel boats present a problem as well, however, they may not be able to move fast enough to get that close in many cases. We "escorted" a CV to Mayport once and kept a steady pace of 20 knots with lots of course changes.

In 1972 the sub I was on was involved in an exercise to sharpen ASW skills for CV task forces. We got close enough to take pictures of the CV; so close a sailor on the carrier threw a grenade that exploded near our hull just outside AMR2 LL and scared the living daylights out of the feed station watch (me). Most on the sub hardly heard it except the sonar gang. In this particular exercise we were accused of cheating (try telling the enemy not to cheat-basically sneaking out of the exercise area and then back in) and had to surface and take on a full Captain to monitor us. We werent cheating, did not need to cheat. The TF we were attacking had the CV, many DD's and two attack subs of the same class as us (Sturgeon). They never got close to us on any of our attack runs.

[whippleofd]

AW1:

Here are a few accounts, some very reputable such as USNI , some not so much such as Wikipedia. Where did I misrepresent the facts? If I did , again I apologize. Again, All I can go on are reports, articles , and books I've read , and a few of the people I had the chance to talk to. I'd like very much to hear the corrected story.

Only one ship was sunk. One bog was sunk. This hardly constitutes "more than 1/2 of the Iranian Navy".

Of all the surface targets engaged only the Joshan and one bog were sunk. The rest were mission kills and later returned to service. This hardly constitutes "wiped out".

A CG, DD, DDG, FF, FFG and LPD were involved. Only some of them were detached form the Enterprise BG.

From here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wayward
way·ward - adjective
1. turned or turning away from what is right or proper; willful; disobedient: a wayward son; wayward behavior.
2. swayed or prompted by caprice; capricious: a wayward impulse; to be wayward in one's affections.
3. turning or changing irregularly; irregular: a wayward breeze.

Number 2 or 3 could be applied here and I don't believe either are correct for the description you've offered of the SEAL's involvement.

What aspects to Fuchida and Midway are you referring to?

Please read Shattered Sword chapter 24 and look up his name in the index.

In the immortal words of Forest gump: "That's all I've got to say about that."

HAVFND,
MMCS

[bradfordkay]

Since we are going OT with the Midway/Fuchida reference, I am going to come across as "heretical" in saying: Does it really matter if the Japanese strike package was being re-armed on the flight deck or the hangar deck? The crux of the matter is that there were munitions on deck which contributed to the conflagration.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I have heard the subs in operation today have the ability to sneak undetected w/in torp range of any CVBG and place torps into the screws of any capitol ship. So I figure the CV will go the path of the BB. I expect this to happen w/ in the next 3/4 years.

The US has had that capability for a long time with their nuc subs. Diesel boats present a problem as well, however, they may not be able to move fast enough to get that close in many cases. We "escorted" a CV to Mayport once and kept a steady pace of 20 knots with lots of course changes.

In 1972 the sub I was on was involved in an exercise to sharpen ASW skills for CV task forces. We got close enough to take pictures of the CV; so close a sailor on the carrier threw a grenade that exploded near our hull just outside AMR2 LL and scared the living daylights out of the feed station watch (me). Most on the sub hardly heard it except the sonar gang. In this particular exercise we were accused of cheating (try telling the enemy not to cheat-basically sneaking out of the exercise area and then back in) and had to surface and take on a full Captain to monitor us. We werent cheating, did not need to cheat. The TF we were attacking had the CV, many DD's and two attack subs of the same class as us (Sturgeon). They never got close to us on any of our attack runs.

Interesting tale there Khyberbill. Always nice to hear it straight from the horses mouth so to say.

I fear the situation in the Gulf is devolving into 1988. For those that say the Iranian Navy is not to be feared, remember that the score for Operation Ernest Will and related operations was two USN FFG nearly sunk (Roberts = mine, Stark = Exocet) and the darkest day in USN history when Vincennes shot down a civilian air liner. Yes, I know the Exocet was Iraqui, but it is related. Too many ships in too small of a space. What is the possible tactical advantage of the US CVBG operating in the Gulf at this point in time? They could accomplish their mission nearly as well from the northern Arabian Sea. The most dangerous weapon the Iranians have are their D/E submarines. Why go where they have the advantage? I have to wonder if the USN leadership is a little worried that diplomacy/politics are putting them somewhere they don't belong.

The best solution to the USN's quandary with the Iranian subs may lie outside of its own OOB. Perhaps our friends in the RN might lend a hand. I hear they are experts at ASW warfare. Or is that just an urban myth also?