TF docking

[BigDuke66]

Well if the port is overcrowded you have the manage it by yourself anyway and in your case you would simply undock those supply TFs to dock, replenish & undock your ASW group so you can then again dock those supply TFs.
But I speak of empty ports where TFs can dock and looking at the results also should dock but that simply don't dock.

Also how often would it be that you foster a whole ASW group(or any other more or less important TF) at a small port that is exactly then blocked when it needs to be replenished.
I can't imagine that this happens very often but thinking about all those small ports that are regular visited by small TFs to bring a bit supply and take some resources out especially early as Allied player who's taking as much as he can to saved in from Japan out of the DEI and later as Japan player who has to get out what he can from the DEI to keep his industry rolling.


To be honest I would love it when the feature could simply calculate the best TF type based on what I load and what ships I use so I can maximize my load/unload rates but it just doesn't do that, all it does is deny docking to TFs without looking at any circumstances except that it has to be a small port.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
Also how often would it be that you foster a whole ASW group(or any other more or less important TF) at a small port that is exactly then blocked when it needs to be replenished.

All those small, valuable outposts acting as ASW, Sub, PT hubs - kept in operation with aux ship.
I´d rate the importance of those working flawless higher than loading/unloading delays any day.

As I said, I agree on what you are critizising, but I´d never accept a solution that trades faster
cargo handling for potential drawbacks for the ops described above.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66



Also how often would it be that you foster a whole ASW group(or any other more or less important TF) at a small port that is exactly then blocked when it needs to be replenished.

Murphy's Law says it will happen at the worst possible time. [;)]

[Don Bowen]

I'm gone through the related code and (as much as I can recall) the design goals behind it.

Original WITP and early pre-release AE did not include any special docking/unloading code for TFs. The TFs attempted to dock and, if they could not, they did not load/unload.

Play testing pointed this out as a potential problem, so code was put in to allow TFs to load/unload without docking - albeit at a lower rate.

Concurrently, additional limits were set up for ports. This was a complex one. Even if TFs could unload large amounts of cargo "over the beach", the port itself had only limited ability to move and store this cargo. At some point the cargo just built up on the beach (waiting for land transport to move it) and the beaches became congested. So we put in non-docked cargo handling limits. Like docked limits, these depended on port size. Both were available, with docked being preferred and undocked never exceeding the docked rates.

Finally, a special check was put in for amphibious TFs at small ports to force them to undocked unloading. There was considerable debate over the details of this during play testing and the final result was a compromise that was probably not fully agreeable for anyone.

In retrospect, I think the calculation of the load/unload rates is a little low and the limits on port processing of over the beach cargo a little too tight. But that is just my opinion and I am no longer active on the AE support team.

A bit long winded but the bottom line is: I recommend that no changes be made to the calculations. Too great a chance of any change unbalancing things even more. Besides both the effect and relative number of occurences are small.

If any changes were to be made, they would have to be to both load/unload rates AND over-the-beach cargo handling limits. Changes to one or the other would be lost due to restriction of the unchanged item. But, if over-the-beach cargo limits were changed, we would throw the entire load/unload calculation out of balance (i.e. docking limits become superfluous). The only way to retain any sanity would be to limit ALL undocked loading/unloading to amphib TFs and give a specific (and tightly controlled) increase to over-the-beach cargo handling limits for naval support. This would be the right thing to do, in my opinion, but would completely remove the ability of non-amphibious TFs to load/unload when not docked. I have memories of the howling when this was attempted during development (especially since loaded TFs can not arbitrarily switch to amphib at the destination). All of this would come back to more tuning and (again, in my opinion) not solve the problem - just alter it so it was wrong in a different way.

All I got...

[BigDuke66]

Thanks for looking at it but changes in calculations are the last thing I would like to see at the moment.
Out of the 4 results I can only follow one of it(200 supply for docked cargo, exactly as written in the manual), all others don't seem to fit what's written in the manual or info is completely missing.
So no one can advise a change to the calculations unless we get a complete & clear picture of what each ship type does under the various circumstances(TF type, port level, docked vs. undocked, type of load, etc.)I really hope the chapter in the manual regarding this gets a complete overhaul.


All I would like to see is that the undocking feature is used only for those TF types that come into a port with the purpose to unload/load undocked and this type is the Amphibious TF.

All TFs that the player can make are their for a purpose and using cargo/transport/tanker TFs is for shuttling supply, resources, fuel, oil and troops between bases with the purpose of docking to load & unload.
Because if I don't want to let it dock especially at a small base that can't handle much cargo I make an Amphibious TF.


Another to solve this once and for all is to add a new feature similar to the Auto-Disband feature but this time for docking, this gives the player to turn of autodocking in case he wants the base free all the time.

[geofflambert]

Less sophisticated questions here:
I haven't noticed one way or the other since I started playing the beta, but oiler TFs used to keep docking when I didn't want them to (they were fully loaded, ordered not to retire and just biding their time in the port til they got other orders. This is really annoying, what is the reason for this?
Also what are the differences between Transport TFs and Cargo TFs, and between Cargo TFs and Amphibious TFs? I have a pretty good feel for Transport vs Amphibious, but I've never used the Cargo TF type.
Also is there any reason not to dock an Amphibious TF when possible? I haven't noticed any.

[geofflambert]

Oh, and one more, sometimes I've had trouble unloading heavy equipment on non-base beach hexes, and other times not. Is there any rule of thumb on this?

[geofflambert]

Sorry, I meant when using APA/AKA types.

[BigDuke66]

Don mentioned that aircraft have nothing to do with autodocking but they seem to have impact docking/undocking TFs.

I have a single ship cargo TF at Rangoon unloading, last turn it was docked, this turn it is undocked, all that happen was:
xAK Karoa detected by Japanese Dive Bomber at 54,53 near Rangoon
xAK Karoa snooped by Japanese Medium Bomber at 54,53 near Rangoon

opposite to this is a single ship cargo TF also in Rangoon but loading that didn't undock:
TF 681 snooped by Japanese Recon at 54,53 near Rangoon
xAK Hosang sights Japanese Dive Bomber at 54,53 near Rangoon

An air attack on Rangoon didn't happen in that turn.
The Hosang/TF681 wasn't docked last turn and I guess I docked it manually as I always go thru the TF list before processing a turn, maybe this is the reason why it didn't undock.
And the Karoa may have undocked because it was autodocked in Rangoon(with port level 4 is enough for autodocking).

But it also can be coming from the Detection level, Karoa DL is now 6/10 and was 10/10 last turn, that of the Hosang is 5/6 and was 2/5 last turn.
I really hope this comes from the DL as I think it makes a lot sense to undock a TF that has clearly drawn the attention of the enemy on it.
Can you say something to that Don?

[Yaab]

Auto-dock does not happen if the dock is smaller than 3.

This does not stop you from manually docking if allowed.

Where have you been all my life? Now I have a way to save my resources-laden xAKL in Phillipines from deadly Naval Search/Naval Attack air attacks. Just arrive at port 3 and you are auto-docked.

Ugh,the AI can run Tonan whalers through gaps in my WITP:AE knowledge.

[Yaab]

But it also can be coming from the Detection level, Karoa DL is now 6/10 and was 10/10 last turn, that of the Hosang is 5/6 and was 2/5 last turn.
I really hope this comes from the DL as I think it makes a lot sense to undock a TF that has clearly drawn the attention of the enemy on it.
Can you say something to that Don?

Undocking owing to high DL means a TF is now at sea. For a cargo/amphib TF this is detrimental (TF unloads at slower rate, doesn't benefit from port's AA units, is prone to Naval Search/Naval Attack air raids), but is beneficial for surface TFs (those don't unload anything, can maneuver in open seas).

Also, if an unloading amphib/cargo TF reaches DL 10/10 while docked in port, you can still disband it manually to port, thus shaking off the DL.

[Yaab]

OK, I checked how my xAKLs, loading resources in 1-2 level port in the Phillipines, behave when their DL goes up.

I created the TFs, docked them manually and started loading resources. Since the code will not auto-disband TF which are not empty, I was expecting the TFs to be docked in their ports partially or fully loaded, depending on resources load rates of the ports.

However, next turn, after each TF have been spotted several times by Japanese aircraft, all TFs start the turn UNDOCKED with their DL being mostly 10/10.
So ports 1-2 have some sort of auto-undocking. There is no feedback if the auto-undocking happens in AM phase or PM phase, or what DL treshold value needs to be reached for auto-undocking to activate. Were my TFs undocked in AM phase, and sat prone to Naval Attacks in PM phase outside their ports?

As I said, this behaviour is detrimental to cargo TFs, and beneficial to surface combat TFs.

EDIT:

Damn! It seems this auto-undocker also works in port level 3.

This is my resources TF unloading in Batangas (port level3) when I checked upon the TF after turn resolution. TF's detection is 10/10 and the TF started the turn undocked!

[Yaab]

So I manually docked the TF to finish unloading. I could have disbanded the TF to shake off its DL level, but I was curious what would happen if I did not. Ran the turn and BAM!


Morning Air attack on TF, near Batangas at 79,78

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 11
Ki-51 Sonia x 6

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 3

No Japanese losses
No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAKL Dos Hermanos

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 18000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 50 kg GP Bomb

So the code again auto-undocked my TF, probably at start of the turn, thus my TF was at sea during the AM phase. Luckily, the ship was attacked by IJA level bombers and survived. My xAKL has no AA weapons, poor speed/manuverability, low durability, low-rated captain - why does the code push her out to open seas? She would have been better served by simply sitting docked in the port all the time.

Basically, I am forced by the code to manually disband the auto-undocked TFs to shake their DL and manually reform them, if I want my cargo ships to survive.

[Chris21wen]

DL don't cause TF to undock, unload or any thing else for that matter. If it did no TF would do anything. All detection levels do is help hit something.

Just as TF won't automatically dock at level 1and 2 port, TF will try and undock if attacked as a moving TF is harder to hit. This is in built into the game. Although not modelled directly in the game it takes time to dock/undock and small TF can undock faster than large TF. Maybe it should be in terns of OPs.

Anther point is port size determines the size of the TF that can dock, hence small TF are more liekly to be seen undocking.

Finally in real life the time taken to undock a TF is going to be much longer than the length of an air raid.

[Yaab]

Assuming DL is not responsible for TFs undocking, that would mean that aircraft on Naval Search mission somehow perform undocumented attacks on TFs during air searches thus forcing TFs to undock.

My TF in Batangas spent so much time undocked there that it would actually make sense to bring a big non-fitting xAK (with DP guns or 20mm Oerlikons) with several escorting DDs (with DP) guns instead. If you spend almost 100% time undocked risking an air attack, it is better to sit in a TF that has heavy DP guns, and a more durable xAK.

I am curious if barge TFs also auto-undock.

[RangerJoe]

Assuming DL is not responsible for TFs undocking, that would mean that aircraft on Naval Search mission somehow perform undocumented attacks on TFs during air searches thus forcing TFs to undock.

My TF in Batangas spent so much time undocked there that it would actually make sense to bring a big non-fitting xAK (with DP guns or 20mm Oerlikons) with several escorting DDs (with DP) guns instead. If you spend almost 100% time undocked risking an air attack, it is better to sit in a TF that has heavy DP guns, and a more durable xAK.

I am curious if barge TFs also auto-undock.

I have lost ships to search aircraft bombing them. Tankers with fuel or oil tend to burn real fast.

Only ships not in a TF are protected by any base AAA. If I remember correctly, AA fire from a dock TF is halved.

[Yaab]

Yes, Naval Search attacks work probably in two ways:

A) air attacks on your TFs which give you the crosshair icon/horn sound and a message that your ship is under attack. Enemy ships are reported HIT. Both actions are visible during turn resolution.

B) invisible, unreported attacks that can sink small ships outright. I mentioned them in this post:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9#p4753569

If Chris21wen is right, and it is enemy attacks that auto-undock TFs, than those attacks would have to be of B) variety. Mind you, in Phillipines, my xAKLs haven't experienced A) attacks, they were just "snooped", "spotted" etc. by Japanese aircraft several times during a single turn.

EDIT:
Naval Search doesn't have secondary mission

Naval Attack can have Port Attack secondary mission (commander discretion) and you can set a % for Search.

Thus, to force a docked TF to open seas would require an air group with Port Attack secondary mission. Somehow this air group, without attacking the port directly, performs a "fake" attack just overflying the port, and make the TF undock, thus making the TF unable to dock again, because the TF now evades "fake" Naval Attacks from other air groups, until a real Naval Attack is performed when we see a combat animation, and the TF sinks (most of the time)

[Chris21wen]

Port attacks do not atttack TF only anchored ship 50% of the time. The ships will defend the port with up to half their aa firepower.

You need to set Naval attack for TF but as you said they can have a secondary Port attack.

As to search ac affecting a TF undocking, possibly as they will attack lighly armed TFs, like a single xAKL.

The other point is the larger the port the hard it is to damage it. Probably this is programmed in were TF are less likely to undock in larger ports, feeling safer. Speculation here.

[Chris21wen]

I am curious if barge TFs also auto-undock.

They probably would if they had time but they unload in one turn.

[Yaab]

Good point about the barges.

Do TFs ever dock in frontline bases? Manila port 5, lots of AA, lots of CAP at range 0. A TF arrives with 3200 resources, unloads some, suffers two air attacks, and starts the next turn UNDOCKED. Just sit in the port DOCKED. Any air attack on port will have to:
a) go through CAP
b) go through base's AA
c) will have 50% chance of attacking docked ships.

An air group on Naval Attack will have a 100% chance of attacking the lonely TF with DL 10/10 in port hex, while going through a mighty flak consisting of 1 DP gun and a few AAMGs, while the xAK maneuvers like a BHP Iron Train in Port Hedland.

I just don't understand the logic behind auto-docking/auto-undocking in this game.