Ok, lets talk about surface ships.

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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Mr.Frag
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Post by Mr.Frag »

The system damage incurred by doing what you say has NOTHING to do with the ships using their main guns and is solely based upon movement...WHICH IS MY POINT.


You want an additional SYS damage rate added to any combat actions as well right? Sounds reasonable and fairly easy to implement. It will become a balance issue though, with the US damage control probably repairing things too fast ;)

I doubt it can be done at a detailed enough level to have anything beyond a generic addition as the game doesn't track enough technical details to be about to detail the damage model properly, coupled with damage control not being user controllable.

Might be interesting to have port size/2-3 (in other words port of 4 or more) worth of repair points that could be spent on fixing ships instead of the generic routine in the game now where it is completely abstracted out of your control when really this *IS* a strategic control option, where priority of what gets repaired should be player commanded.
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Post by Grumbling Grogn »

Originally posted by XPav
Bombardment missions cause large amounts of system damage. That doesn't bother me.

The most major unrealistic point of UV that affects everything is the unlimited fuel supply at Truk.

Now, one would of course point out that without that, the Japanese player wouldn't really have a fun game, and that's a very very important point. However, I do think that for the ultra-grognards sake, there really should be a switch to reduce Truk (and Noumea and Brisbane, of course) to realistic supply/fuel replenishment levels.

But its not going to happen. :D



Sounds like an excellent idea to me.
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Drex
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Post by Drex »

in addition to what Soulblazer has mentioned towards balance,isn't Truk/Noumea a cornucopia of supply, never to run out. The Japanese had supply requirements all over the Pacific but Truk never runs out: all to provide a better balance.
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Post by Yamamoto »

I find BB, CA, and CL ships to be mostly useless in this game if you have CV superiority. The only thing they are good for is bombardment. Any now someone wants to take that away from them? Hell, let's just skip the war and turn them into museums now.

As long as I have 4 or more CVs I make like 1 or 2 bombardment missions a month at most. Sure, in the “Four Weeks of Hell” scenario I do bombardment missions constantly, but my ships see a lot of wear and tear. If they took any more I’d probably just let them sit in port in one really huge task force set on reaction. Eventually they’d react into one big battle and then they’d go back to sitting there for a few more months until they reacted again. Boring.

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Post by Nomad »

On the fuel and supply stocks at Truk/Brisbane/Noumea, a long time ago, well before UV came out, Matrix asked, on this board, how people felt it should be handled. I have to believe that the consensus at that time was to make them unlimited for those bases.

I guess the early posters had their say at that time.
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Post by Buchon »

There're so many factors in real life that I think it would be impossible to recreate it, even using computers. I mean: what about the real wheather conditons during the war years; and sea conditions; what about sun blinding during air combats; and other thousands of small details affecting human decisions and material usage.

I don't want an absolutely historic game, we have history books for that.
I want to enjoy my playing time, and I do this better if I've an opportunity to win. Yes, I know, sometimes it's also fantastic to afford the same historic problems: fuel and amunition shortage, few CV, unskilled pilots, tropical diseases... But I prefer this concentrated on an scenario, leaving the rest as equilibrated games in which both sides have a chance to win.

On this thread the question is where's the limit. When a game will recreated the sufficient historic facts to be considered realistic? Will be enough if we take into account the gun tubes usage? Sure tomorrow we'll ask for a new topic needed to be balanced.

I like UV. If I play as japanese, my oportunity is 1942. If I play as Allied, I've to survive till 1943 and then...

I've also been under heavy naval and air attacks, negating my advanced bases and I don't blame the game -well, to be honest, I do- but I know is my role as comand-in-chief to find out the way to emerge of that situation: defensive measures or launch an attack on a different place. Or maybe there's no solution and you must retreat. Well, in fact, the same kind of decisiosn that were made historically, but not necessaryly induced by the same historic situations and/or material availabilities. And I (want to) think this is the designer intention, not just to make an interactive CD.


Well, sorry for the speech and thanks for the attention.
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Post by Drex »

well said Buchon.
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Post by Grumbling Grogn »

What does "winning" mean?

I mean does anyone really think that if the Japanese had won the campaign depicted in UV they would have won the war? Please. :rolleyes:

Does making a balanced game where either side can win mean that in WitP the Japanese will get the "bomb" in 1945 too? Or rather just that the Japanese have a real chance of invading California and conquering the US? Australia? :rolleyes: None of these things happened, nor could have happend and thus have no place in a historical wargame.

You do not balance historical wargames by altering historical parameters <period> As soon as you do this the game is no longer a historical wargame. What-ifs are great, but they should be limited to options, scenarios and the like and not built into the very heart of the game itself.

Balance is achieved by scenarios and victory conditions.
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Post by Drex »

I want a game with combat units that are historically accurate but with parameters flexible enough so that the outcomes are not predictable. this way the game can be played over and over. I believe UV is this type of game and if it doesn't meet "historical" definitions I could care less. Historical scenarios and campaigns can be provided to satisfy those who want to re-create history ( this has limited gameplay I think). The rest of us can play the What-if scenarios and campaigns.
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a bit off topic but ...

Post by gus »

Xpav's suggestion of limiting the fuel and supplies available to the Japanese at Truk is excellent and will solve the problem of the shuttle bombardment groups (a few others as well) as they will not be able to sortie at will. It will make the game play more "historically" which I think we all want.

mjk428's suggestion that play balance should be achieved through victory points is absolutely right on the mark too, if the game is historical/realistic the benchmark for one's success or failure has already been measured by the actual combatants. The game should not be tweaked to make it more playable.

Supply needs to be reined in for the Allies as well not because there were shortages but that it is possible in UV to create humongous supply and fuel dumps everywhere you have a base and that is just not reasonable. There really needs to be a limit on the amount of supply/fuel that can be dumped in a given base dependent on its port and air base size. This was one of the gating factors throughout the entire campaign for both sides and should be routinely managed by the UV engine, i.e if you dump 90K supplies at a level one air base/port you should lose all but 10-20K or whatever is deemed reasonable after testing.

Level bombers, especially allied bombers needs to be re-examined as well. It should be a herculean task in UV to organize and execute a large air raid especially in 1942 but all of us routinely launch large raids of this size in UV on a pretty regular basis. Air raids should not only take a toll on the planes and pilots but on their ground crews (base forces) in terms of disruption/fatigue/attrition and on the bases themselves in terms of damage, i.e. damaged planes crashing on landing, ordinance explosions, ground crew accidents etc. This should all be a function of the size of the raid and the size of the airbase. This should go a long way in reducing the effectiveness of Allied level bombers and may also encourage distribution of the bombers as occured IRL.

IMO all of this will reduce the need for play balancing that is in UV today. There will be fewer Japanese bombardment groups simply because they do not have enough fuel to do so. There will also be less of a need for these missions as the allies will not have 24/7 level bomber coverage of the avenues of approach as they will be limited to 1 or 2 signifcant raids per week as the Allies will have to husband their air resources if they want to launch large scale raids etc.

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Another Excellent Post

Post by Grumbling Grogn »

Gus hit it on the head.

I like everyone of his ideas and they illustrate exactly why "balancing" historical parameters (attack values, etc.) is not a good idea for a Historical wargame. :)
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Post by Nikademus »

In my opinion the "problem" lies not with supply, nor in wear and tear, nor in the life expectancy of gun barrels. As i've mussed on the WitP board....wear and tear on warships is already far too high making even normal cruising a taxing operation the farther a TF goes much less a high speed bombardment or Fast transport.
I am keeping my eye firmly locked on the far greater distances that will be traversed in WitP vs UV.

Supply in the game is indeed plentiful.....more so than was historical. This was a conciencious decision on the part of the game designers due to the game' limited scope in terms of the entire Pacific Campaign. While it does cause a quickening of the operational pace, i consider it a non issue pretty much since WitP will solve it simply by coming into existance.

It is certainly true that gun barrels have a "Shelf life" however this is a pandora's box best not opened. Why? Simple. Its not just gun barrels. Its EVERYTHING. Especially when one is talking the SoPac theater. Everything has a shelf life. Aircraft, aircraft parts, engines, weapons, tools etc etc etc. Airforces on both sides during this period would be fortunate to have 50% or more of their paper strength flyable on any one day. But to simulate this would require a supply system so complex as to boggle the mind of even the most fanatical grognard, not to mention require a wargame far larger than even this formidable 21st century example. There are also many many different kinds of supply (Mine issue anybody?) In short......its not really a practical road at this point in time. Maybe the 'next' generation of wargames will have it. Assuming my horse doesn't kill me i hope to live to see it.

Level bombers.......no comment :)

The more basic (and solvable) problem, i feel lies in the depiction of the bases themselves. Essentially, all bases are treated as Lungas. Guadalcanal was in so many ways, a unique struggle which saw both navies fighting in ways and preforming missions not conceived of prewar. To elaborate.....Lunga was "indeed" highly vulnerable to surface bombardment, due to it's geography and due to the military situation of the time. The entire Marine perimeter, including the airfields, was very small, and there were no advance features to protect both supply dumps and aircraft.

However not every base in real life is a Lunga, either in size, in geography nor in complexity. Some bases are geographically unsuitable for bombardment completely. Rabaul comes to mind. Anyone ever see an arial picture of Rabaul base? Its harbors are not easily accessible thus making a close range bombardment impractical not to mention extremely risky. But it can be done in UV. I've done it myself just for giggles.

For those that are more accessible, there is the complexity issue. In both bombardment and air bombardment terms i see too little difference in the way they behave. Lunga, given how many aircraft operated from it was game wise probably not greater than a "level 3 base" (small historical fudge....B-17's did operate from the main field for refueling stops, in UV of course a base must be level 4 or higher to operate twin+ engine bombers) and in terms of operational aircraft was Level 2 at least at the beginning stages.
The lack of revertments or other more permanent fixtures precludes it being awarded a Level 4 or higher status, as well as there being only one field before the creation of the small "fighter one" strip.

As such, it was highly vulnerable to attack. A bigger base, with more airstrips, concrete revertments, and a more developed, better protected and dispersed supply depot should be far far tougher to crack, requiring many many missions just to keep it down.

One does not see this though. A primary culprit is the "supply hit" Its treated the same for all bases and IIRC a 'hit' takes off a fixed % of points per occurance. The problem here is the bigger the supply dump, the bigger the % is, taking positively HUGE chunks out of even the biggest bases. IMO, this should be reversed. The bigger the base (port/airfield) the small the % should be or the harder a "hit" should be.

Same for airfield/airfield service damage. Its supposed to work that way now, but in practice i dont see it. I can take out Rabaul almost as easily as a Lunga. One suggestion i would have outright is that larger airbases should be assumed to have multiple fields therefore a 'cap' should be placed on damage (per raid) as often individual raids will only be able to target one or two fields, not all (unless the raid is very very large) This problem also exists for bombardment. Bombardment should be made more variable as well. Some bombardments of Lunga ended up shelling non vital areas such as the "boneyard" where heaps of canibalized aircraft were piled up.

In short, look not at wear and tear, or supply levels. We must look at the bases and the differences in how they behave when at small/low levels of development vs larger/higher levels of development. There also need to be more variance.....some bombardments/air attacks will be more successful than others, and not all the factors will be influenced by combat or interdiction.
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Post by Drongo »

Posted by gus
IMO all of this will reduce the need for play balancing that is in UV today. There will be fewer Japanese bombardment groups simply because they do not have enough fuel to do so.


I'd think that a lot of thought would need to be put into the decision. Imposing "historical" limitations on supply might not only piss off a lot of players who bought the game for the "action" side of things but also trigger the need for revising a lot of other existing UV routines/mechanics that may be shown up when play slows down. Currently, since you are able to fight "en masse", a lot of individual attributes of planes, ships, etc may be avoiding scrutiny.

Having said that, let me say this :p

I'm all in favour of having UV operations limited, for both sides, by historical constraints so long as it still produces a game that can be played from either side and still be enjoyed. If its not the case, leave it as is.

On a related note, it's not just the current total supply/fuel level that allows almost unrestricted operations. Its also the "instant" top up that the major bases receive each day. If that is not changed as well, you'd be able to avoid a lot of the restrictions by just shuttling your transports in and out on different days.
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Post by crsutton »

Thanks for all the great answers.

Let me just say that I firmly believe that Gary and Matrix want to acheive as much historical accuracy as possible. It can be only for that reason they have made many modifications to the system and listen to us. I want my game to be as historically accurate and a realistic as possible. Obviouly we all have our opinions about what needs to be tweaked: Subs, medium and heavy bombers, bases and surface units.

However, I stand by my statement. It is unrealistic to put capital ships through continous major actions without serious system degration. I used guns only as one example (dont get me started about boiler tubes, forced draft fans, evaporaters and such) This can be corrected in the game and should-as other important items should.

I firmly do not believe in leaving things as-is for play balance or to compensate for unrealistic advantages that the other side has. Play balance can and has been adjusted through other means. I have no problem with hypothetical scenarios that give the Japanese more fuel, ships, better planes, better pilots. If a reasonable hypothsis can be made to support the scenairo, Im ready to play. We all do seem to enjoy scens. 17 and 19. However, I am not looking for any hypothetical situation that assumes it is OK for ships and planes to operate out of the realm of historical accuracy. That is not a what I want in simulation of the war in the South Pacific. Does anybody else really want that? I am not getting that from the many fine posts that I read here. Plain and simple is that surface ships could not do what they are doing in the game. There is good evidence for my statement. Should we work with Matrix to improve this?

I think so. It will benfit both Matrix and this community when Pacific War comes out in the future.
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Post by Bulldog61 »

There was only one successful battleship bombardment of Lunga during the Guadalcanal campaign and that was in October 42. The second time the IJN tried that they lost 2 BB's. In the historic scenario #14 the battleship bombardmrnt begins around Aug 14th.
One must ask why didn't the Japanesse use battleship bombardment more often? The answer was lack of fuel and fuel storage facilities. The Yamato and Mutsu sat anchored at Truk through the entire campaign becuase they were used as floating fuel bunkers. Yet in the game they often come rollong down the slot every other night resupply at Shortlands which gets more use than Rabaul. Also ahistoric.
Historically there should be about 6 to 8 tankers rotating between Tokyo and Truk with very limited off load capability at Truk.The task forces should have to refuel from the tankers. it would be a chore then just to keep the destoyers and occasional cruisers capable of running the Tokyo Express as it was. Careful planning would enable part of the IJN Fleet then to sortie from Truk for about 12 to 14 days a month as was the IJN historic capability.

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Post by Nikademus »

It was more due to the fact that the special shore bombardment shells used by the Japanese were only available for the 14 inch guns such as carried by the Kongo class, vs the 18 inch weapons carried by Yamato and her sister, or the Nagato twins with their 16 inch weapons.

After that, it was a matter of speed, and in the end, expendability.

The Japanese realized the high risk of deploying battleships to an environment they were not well suited too. The Kongos were simotaniously the most useful for the task....

and the most expendible should things go wrong.
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Post by strollen »

However, I stand by my statement. It is unrealistic to put capital ships through continous major actions without serious system degration. I used guns only as one example (dont get me started about boiler tubes, forced draft fans, evaporaters and such) This can be corrected in the game and should-as other important items should.


I think UV does model things like gun wear out pretty well albeit abstractly through system damage.

The 300 rounds per barrel is an optimum maintence in times of war I think battleship typically would go longer. The only penalty I could find for going longer is decreased accuracy (important for Ship to Ship combat but not critical for bombarding) In particular I bet the old refitted Pearl Harbor battleship were involved in heavy bombardments in the invasion of the central pacific didn't have time to go back for barrel replacement between missions.

Even supposing the 300 number that still allows a battleship to engage in 6 bombardment mission before needing to replace barrels . (For example the especially lengthy bombarbment by Haruna, and Kongo expended 973 shells (60/shells per barrel)

My experience is that a retirement bombardment mission from Rabual to Lunga or Gili to Cairns gives 2-4 system damage per mission. Do this 6 times and the BB is due for a refit, which means at least 3 months in a major port or being sent back to Pearl or Truk.

I do agree that the unlimited supply and especially fuel in Truk give the Japanese a significant advantage which encourage higher operational tempo.
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Post by Nikademus »

Originally posted by crsutton
Thanks for all the great answers.


I firmly do not believe in leaving things as-is for play balance or to compensate for unrealistic advantages that the other side has.


The supply situation was not put in place for play balance issues. It was put in place to simplify the supply situaiton based on the assumption that the theater portrayed (SOPAC) was currently receiving a priority and yes, to simplify the game mechanics. Thus both sides main bases's (Truk and Normura) receive unlimited supply on a per daily basis and favors both sides equally (OOB issues excepted of course)

Obviously once WitP debuts, this situation will no longer exist and one that closely matches PacWar will take it's place. The US player will no doubt have unlimited supply bases located on the west coast and so will the Japanese in the home islands, the exception being their supply base will be determined by the level of sucessful import and conversion of raw materials brought in from the conquored territories, something that can (and will) be affected by USN efforts in the future.

If (or when) a SoPac campaign occurs, the supply and fuel limitations mentioned will make themselves felt for both sides.

The suggestion to lower supply levels for Normura and Truk are not new. I've suggested this myself in the past. more so after Austrailian towns were made part of the continuous and automatic supply chain via their paved road network. A situation which greatly simplifies Allied defence of New Guniea. However more pressing isues were also present that needed addressing as well. Since many of those issues have been addressed to some degree, i'm not personally going to complain over the supply issue. Again, it will resolve itself once WitP debuts.
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Post by Veer »

Originally posted by XPav
Bombardment missions cause large amounts of system damage. That doesn't bother me.

The most major unrealistic point of UV that affects everything is the unlimited fuel supply at Truk.

Now, one would of course point out that without that, the Japanese player wouldn't really have a fun game, and that's a very very important point. However, I do think that for the ultra-grognards sake, there really should be a switch to reduce Truk (and Noumea and Brisbane, of course) to realistic supply/fuel replenishment levels.

But its not going to happen. :D


There was a thread/discussion a long time ago about this very issue. It was pretty much established that the Japs that little trouble getting fuel into Turk during the time period of UV, and so it was decided not to restrict their fuel supplies.
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Post by Nikademus »

Originally posted by strollen
I think UV does model things like gun wear out pretty well albeit abstractly through system damage.

The 300 rounds per barrel is an optimum maintence in times of war I think battleship typically would go longer. The only penalty I could find for going longer is decreased accuracy (important for Ship to Ship combat but not critical for bombarding) In particular I bet the old refitted Pearl Harbor battleship were involved in heavy bombardments in the invasion of the central pacific didn't have time to go back for barrel replacement between missions.



They didn't have too. Replacement gun barrels were brought to the one's that had clearly worn out their current set. No one is certainly suggesting that ships be able to operate indefinately without some form of downtime. Some excellent suggestions have been made over on the WitP board, where the issue of incidental SYS damage is far more accute than in UV....I particularily like Mogami's idea of periodic refit being required, with a definate cap on incidental SYS. Ignorance of which would result in a 'roll' for critical failure of some component or another.

It is a much better idea than the general and continuous SYS accumulation which would, on a scale that WitP will hold, make sustained operations by warships all but impossible
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