Geronimo!!!!!

[Farfarer61]

There is an incompatibility with the FBD rail supply model 'being an adequate emulation' of supply which will lead to a more or less historical Dec 41 stop line, and the ability to wipe supply to huge swathes of troops as the supply system is hyper-simplified, therefore has too many unrealistic single points of failure.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

There is an incompatibility with the FBD rail supply model 'being an adequate emulation' of supply which will lead to a more or less historical Dec 41 stop line, and the ability to wipe supply to huge swathes of troops as the supply system is hyper-simplified, therefore has too many unrealistic single points of failure.

What he said [&o]

[whollaborg]

No need to repeat the details (fb.asp?m=3041651)

But how come it will be standard exploit as feeding whole southern half of German Eastern Armies and Panzer Armies trough Rumania has not become "a standard exploit" which has quite equally "zero historical basic". This is only respond to Peltonesque rushing the rails by constructing only one railroad and no network with a railhead already in Kursk area september 1941!

This really needs to be nerfed as it will become a standard exploit that has zero historical basic.

[mmarquo]

Sorry, you're just wrong here. Operation Market-Garden was a strategic level plan, signed off by Monty and Ike, to use paras in a 'gamey exploit' and seize bridgeheads for a rapid advance (the plan was to originally conclude in 4 days). The use of paras isn't 'tactical' (like calling in air support or artillery). Tactical is how you take the hill, strategy is how you develop a (in this case vertical) envelopment.

I disagree [:)]. Using a single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe, does not belong in a strategic level game.

BTW, the Germans can do para drops in this game, with the potential to really hurt the Soviet. I did this a few times against the AI to great effect, but not yet against a human; though the first time I find a para 200 miles in my rear I will abandon all restraint.


Marquo

[Walloc]

Better yet drop em on several major factory sites in germany in turn 2.... Sorry u never get the panther, ops u only have half the vechicles production of the war. Not sure many players garrison their cities to prevent such.

Exploit patented!

Rasmus

[Seminole]

Using a single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe, does not belong in a strategic level game.

Can you explain how you think that is possible. I can't make the math work on that as Russian morale is too low and EZOC and enemy hex costs are simply too high.

[AFV]

So I can move an entire mech corps into a hex, and it flips to pending my control, but if i drop a measly para brigade there, it suddenly flips to my control?
What is wrong with this picture?

[Seminole]

So I can move an entire mech corps into a hex, and it flips to pending my control, but if i drop a measly para brigade there, it suddenly flips to my control?
What is wrong with this picture?

Do I need to explain to you how it was easier for the 82nd and 101st airborne to seize control of territory more rapidly that XXX Corps advancing in a linear fashion from the front line?
Is that what you're asking?

I'm still curious about the 'single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe'. Can you clarify that? Or was it just ludicrous exaggeration?

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Savanniperkele

No need to repeat the details (fb.asp?m=3041651)

But how come it will be standard exploit as feeding whole southern half of German Eastern Armies and Panzer Armies trough Rumania has not become "a standard exploit" which has quite equally "zero historical basic". This is only respond to Peltonesque rushing the rails by constructing only one railroad and no network with a railhead already in Kursk area september 1941!

This really needs to be nerfed as it will become a standard exploit that has zero historical basic.

Its not your fault you just saw a big fat loop hole and jumped in both feet first. Which is good for the game in long run. This is public beta. They nerfed my uber panzer 1941 offensives, heheh. The game is better because of it and I had a hand in its nerfing hehehehe.

You should be happy.

They should name the new fixes after the poeple who found them or exploited them, heheeh

The basic logistic system and rail system is not very good as can be seen. This issue will be all worked out with witw and wite2 I am sure. 2by3's products always get better over time.

Most games ALL the rail lines are repaired 3 ro 4 hexes per turn so you don't get the 5 long single lines.

The rail repair issue was nerfed a few patchs ago. So I am not repairing lines any faster or slower then anyone esle. Only 4 bugged hexes left on the map I can find.

This exploit could be done to Jamiam or MT in there games as it was done 2 times in ours.

Jamiam, MT and myself are not doing anything different then anyone esle any more as rail repair is all standerd now. Its slower then before so there is zero chance of doing anything north south until mud or just before.

Pelton

[Seminole]

Jamiam, MT and myself are not doing anything different then anyone esle any more as rail repair is all standerd now.

What happened to your construction subunits? Why does it appear they're not being utilized and not creating the interconnects and 'backfilling' the rail net?
Is a single line supporting AGS 'standard' in your view?
Still wondering how your rail construction benchmarks compared to the historical marks I mentioned in the other post.

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

So I can move an entire mech corps into a hex, and it flips to pending my control, but if i drop a measly para brigade there, it suddenly flips to my control?
What is wrong with this picture?

Do I need to explain to you how it was easier for the 82nd and 101st airborne to seize control of territory more rapidly that XXX Corps advancing in a linear fashion from the front line?
Is that what you're asking?

I'm still curious about the 'single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe'. Can you clarify that? Or was it just ludicrous exaggeration?

Like JAIMaiM explained; immediately converting the hex during one's turn is different than having it convert during the interphase.

[AFV]

Seminole:

I would assume paratroops can get there faster since they are flown in and don't walk or drive in. I guess you do need to explain to me why a mech corps with 90,000 men and assorted vehicles does not immediately convert a hex in game like a para brigade, with a couple thousand men. I don't see how they can control the space more effectively than a unit 50 times larger does. I have to wonder if that was the intent of the devs.

[Seminole]

I would assume paratroops can get there faster since they are flown in and don't walk or drive in. I guess you do need to explain to me why a mech corps with 90,000 men and assorted vehicles does not immediately convert a hex in game like a para brigade, with a couple thousand men. I don't see how they can control the space more effectively than a unit 50 times larger does. I have to wonder if that was the intent of the devs.

It's not a matter of 'control space more effectively', but it is a matter of movement costs.

XXX Corps rolling over roads and bridges controlled by paras doesn't have the same considerations as they would moving through enemy controlled territory. That 'cost' is borne by the airborne (in lost men, readiness, and airframes).

Consider, in games terms, the motorized cost of Operation Garden without Operation Market:

Minor River hexside (No EZOC) +2
Minor River hexside (EZOC) +6
Major River hexside (No EZOC) +4
Major River hexside (EZOC) +18

Several rivers, 10 to 20 miles apart, that in game terms XXX Corps could never traverse in one week unless friendly controlled. Immediate conversion can represent factors like seizing bridges before they are blown, reduced need for scouting and recon, and similar factors that explain the higher cost of moving into enemy territory. In point of fact, the operation failed where the paras failed to seize bridges.

[AFV]

I guess I kinda see your point but just don't agree.
Lets say there is a gap in the enemy line. I move a stack of  2 Mech Corps thru it- nearly 200,000 men plus vehicles. All I get is the hexes converted to pending.
Then I drop a para on it, and viola, its friendly. I guess in game terms, the para unit could be considered to have gotten there first (regardless of the order I moved the units), since they flew and were dropped in- and because of that had more time to "make the hex friendly" but it still does not seem right to me.

[mmarquo]

I agree with AFV; what is the difference between air dropping a para brigade into a hex as opposed to having an inf bridgade walk into the hex prior to a larger force entering the hex? In either case the hex was "controlled" by a brigde first.

Marquo

[mmarquo]

Here is the quote from the manual:

"Any air base unit can be used as a staging base. Note that since only regimental or brigade sized airborne combat units can be air dropped, air dropped units will only convert the hex they drop in from enemy controlled to a pending friendly hex (6.3)"

So, if the hexes are immediately becoming friendly, than it is not WAD.

Marquo

[Seminole]

Lets say there is a gap in the enemy line. I move a stack of 2 Mech Corps thru it- nearly 200,000 men plus vehicles. All I get is the hexes converted to pending.

EZOC represents that the gap isn't really a vacuum. The hex delineation is notional. That's why a mech corps can convert empty hexes on either side of it (that are not in EZOC), but a smaller unit doesn't.

[AFV]

Good find Marquo. We find common ground, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Lets say there is a gap in the enemy line. I move a stack of 2 Mech Corps thru it- nearly 200,000 men plus vehicles. All I get is the hexes converted to pending.

EZOC represents that the gap isn't really a vacuum. The hex delineation is notional. That's why a mech corps can convert empty hexes on either side of it (that are not in EZOC), but a smaller unit doesn't.

Not to nit pick, but divisions also convert the 6 hexes adjacent; brigades do not; the conversion occurs during the interphase (pending).

[mmarquo]

Common ground = Truth [:)]