Kitakami and Oi: How effective?

[Tiornu]

I'm not sure Guadalcanal offers any argument in favor of Long Lances. Was there ever a case in which older 24in torpedoes would not have done as well?

[Commander Stormwolf]

Battle of Savo Island and Battle of Tassafaronga,
the light ships are decisive

Japanese BBs.. not so good

[Commander Stormwolf]

I'm not sure Guadalcanal offers any argument in favor of Long Lances.

said the modern, revisionist historian [:D]

I'm sure Guadalcanal offers an argument that Long Lances were never used operationally

from a book written one hundred years later in the year 2112....

[bbbf]

Like a lot of Japanese planning, I am sure that given the right circumstances they could have had a deadly effect.

The only problem is that those right circumstances were so unlikely to come about, that the ships become white elephants.

[Commander Stormwolf]

we are taught in science, that if a microstate exists, eventually it is satisfied

even an unlikely event such as "Yamato running into a group of CVs" did materialize (Samar).. unfortunately so did the event of "Japanese commander is demoralized and runs away"

Kurita is probably one of the biggest cowards/idiots of all military history

to the masses it is called murphy's law

to the scientist it is called ΔS= k ln W

either way, better to have Kitikami cruisers with torpedoes,
than Omaha cruisers with nothing

[Tiornu]

The ranges at Savo were short enough to obviate the biggest advantage of the Long Lance over earlier models. How about Tassafaronga--what was the range there? Were there any Guadalcanal torpedo hits from ranges beyond 7000 yards or maybe 11,000 yards?
We don't have complete info on which IJN ships had Long Lances in summer 1942.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: bbbf

Like a lot of Japanese planning, I am sure that given the right circumstances they could have had a deadly effect.

The only problem is that those right circumstances were so unlikely to come about, that the ships become white elephants.

That sums it up. In right circumstances they could have been devastating.

Also if i am remembering right my search at time they had a limited range that precluded being employed with the main fleet.

[Commander Stormwolf]

Long Lance's main advantage was not range, it was speed

at the short range setting, it was capable of 50 kts with no torpedo wake

so those cruisers at guadalcanal had no idea what was happening until they were on their way to davey jones' locker

[Dili]

Most torpedos were capable of 50kt at short range. The wake is mostly irrelevant at night.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Most torpedos were capable of 50kt at short range. The wake is mostly irrelevant at night.

No..., they weren't. The initial specs for the Type 94's were based on the faulty premise of the "Decisive Battle" with very long ranged fire. Java Sea proved that wasn't effecient (two Japanese Destroyer Squadrons waisted virtually all their torpedoes at long range for no result)..., but later in the same battle the two heavy cruisers showed what could be done by using them at shorter range and higher speed settings.

That's how the Japs used them around Guadalcanal, and it was quite successfull until the Americans finally caught on and made better use of their radar to counter the threat. Nobody else in the world had a torpedo that could make 49 knots for over 10,000 yards. And if you've ever seen the wake of a ship in phosporescent South Sea waters you wouldn't call it irrelevent. It was a good weapon, and the IJN made good use of it for a while. Unfortunately for them, it was about the only technologically superior weapon they posessed..., and it wasn't enough when faced with Allied superiority in most other tech areas..., and in numbers.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Kurita is probably one of the biggest cowards/idiots of all military history

Does history not forgive Kurita his faults after being hammered by attacks since the Palawan Passage, facing an overly tenacious DD/CVE force, not actually knowing that they were just DDs and CVEs, overworked, lacking sleep and not being a fanatically suicidal? I actually felt bad for the rap that he got after reading an in-depth book on the Battle of Leyte Gulf. IMO, Nishimura and Halsey both acted worse (at least for that battle, if not their whole careers)

[Commander Stormwolf]

weep for the crews of Zuikaku, and the BBs of surigao strait that made the Yamato's attack possible

if he was not fanatical, it was the wrong choice for a commander

Yamato was supposed to inflict major damage to the enemy and then be sunk in battle,
instead it was sunk by aircraft later and caused no major damage

[Tiornu]

Nobody else in the world had a torpedo that could make 49 knots for over 10,000 yards.

Yes, that's the question. Which of the hits around Guadalcanal were at such long ranges? Anything beyond about 8000 yards would be worth noting.

I actually felt bad for the rap that he got after reading an in-depth book on the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

Yes, the traditional Western view has yet to escape the traditional Western perspective and sources. I tend to think that we'll never know exactly what was going on inside his head. Even his own subsequent comments are contradictory.

[Commander Stormwolf]

demand the option to replace kurita with kamikaze pilot [:D]

99agr rating..

out of ammo? ram them CVEs.. Yamato can make 27kts , CVEs just 21? [&o]

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Kurita is probably one of the biggest cowards/idiots of all military history

Kurita was far from a coward and idiot. Feel comfortable in your chair at home? [8|]

He was one of the few commanders left to the Japanese who was not prepared to sacrifice 1000s of his
men for no gain.

Asessing the situation, and without any intel about the success of the carrier diversion, he came to the
conclusion he was opposing 3rd fleet and the diversion had failed. He still ordered an attack, and only retreated
after the heroic USN response with every plane and ship they could throw into battle made him believe he had
been spotted and was under attack by 3rd fleet carriers and their escorts, and that he had no chance whatsoever to
engage the landings.

One can say that the attack itself was not performed in the best tradition of Japanese naval battles -
which might also be understandable as the whole fleet was constantly mauled by HE bombs dropped from
carrier planes, but to call somebody a coward and idiot who slugs it out against enemy air supremacy for
hours - before deciding to retreat and save his men, is about as wrong as you can get.

[nate25]

+1.

What's up with the name-calling, CSW?

Ever had someone shooting at you? Don't go around thinking you know exactly what you'd do in that situation. Especially if you're responsible for lives (in this case a lot of them).

Nate

[spence]

Yes, that's the question. Which of the hits around Guadalcanal were at such long ranges? Anything beyond about 8000 yards would be worth noting.

It was off New Georgia or Kolombangara I think but the DD USS Strong was sunk by a Long Lance at about 45,000 yards or so. The accompanying cruisers picked up the firing ships disappearing off the edge of their radar screens some time before. When USS Strong blew up 20 minutes later the US Commander thought she had hit a mine.

[Cavalry Corp]

Back on topic-

All the Jap old CL are good for mixing with DD or light groups say to cover landings were light enemy forces may be expected. I have found they have also faired well opposing and draining allied CA and CL of ammo in night battles as they seem difficult to hit. The Kitakami and Oi I sometime put in heavier groups ( if available) were they may expect to meet allied BB. There is much more chance I think of landing a TT hit on slower ships.

You should think of them as tough DD. As the war goes on upgrade as required.

[CT Grognard]

The "official" performance of the Type 93 torpedo as announced by the IJN was 11,000 metres at 42 knots.
 
However it could go double that distance at 50 knots, was the most advanced torpedo in the world.
 
Long Lances were involved in the sinking of 23 Allied warships: 6 CAs, 5 CLs, 11 DDs and a CV (but then again, in the case of CV Hornet, she was just finished off, having already taken 3x 250kg bomb hits and 3x aerial torpedo hits).

[Historiker]

to the masses it is called murphy's law

to the scientist it is called ΔS= k ln W

epic [:D]