Kitakami and Oi: How effective?

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Dili

Most torpedos were capable of 50kt at short range. The wake is mostly irrelevant at night.

No..., they weren't. The initial specs for the Type 94's were based on the faulty premise of the "Decisive Battle" with very long ranged fire. Java Sea proved that wasn't effecient (two Japanese Destroyer Squadrons waisted virtually all their torpedoes at long range for no result)..., but later in the same battle the two heavy cruisers showed what could be done by using them at shorter range and higher speed settings.

Sorry i meant torpedos from other nations, plus i checked and not many could get on 50kt but most were around 45kt. The British had a torpedo with 47kt, the Italians had 50kt.

[Rising-Sun]

Well if you want to succeed doing some nasty torp whore, remember those ships only shoot 20 per broadside. Try train your ship crews at night battles, the closer the enemies is the better chances to score hits.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

No..., they weren't. The initial specs for the Type 94's were based on the faulty premise of the "Decisive Battle" with very long ranged fire. Java Sea proved that wasn't effecient (two Japanese Destroyer Squadrons waisted virtually all their torpedoes at long range for no result)..., but later in the same battle the two heavy cruisers showed what could be done by using them at shorter range and higher speed settings.

Sorry i meant torpedos from other nations, plus i checked and not many could get on 50kt but most were around 45kt. The British had a torpedo with 47kt, the Italians had 50kt.

Yes..., there were several others that could run pretty fast..., for about 3000 yards. The Long Lance could run faster still..., and for 20,000 yards. The faster a torpedo runs, the smaller the "deflection" that needs to be allowed for it to hit (and the shorter time available for your target to do something unexpected). That made the "Long Lance" quite dangerous.

At battle ranges of 7-15,000 yards, where other nation's torpedoes had to use their "slow" setting (or were out-of-range altogether), the Japanese still had a 50-knot torpedo. That's a big advantage...

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Kurita is probably one of the biggest cowards/idiots of all military history

Kurita was far from a coward and idiot. Feel comfortable in your chair at home? [8|]

He was one of the few commanders left to the Japanese who was not prepared to sacrifice 1000s of his
men for no gain.

Asessing the situation, and without any intel about the success of the carrier diversion, he came to the
conclusion he was opposing 3rd fleet and the diversion had failed. He still ordered an attack, and only retreated
after the heroic USN response with every plane and ship they could throw into battle made him believe he had
been spotted and was under attack by 3rd fleet carriers and their escorts, and that he had no chance whatsoever to
engage the landings.

One can say that the attack itself was not performed in the best tradition of Japanese naval battles -
which might also be understandable as the whole fleet was constantly mauled by HE bombs dropped from
carrier planes, but to call somebody a coward and idiot who slugs it out against enemy air supremacy for
hours - before deciding to retreat and save his men, is about as wrong as you can get.

a big +1

[Commander Stormwolf]

the only lives that matter are those of the civilians you are being paid to protect

kurita was ordered to sacrifice yamato and destroy the USN as best he could

how many sailors were killed aboard Fuso at Surigao strait? Aboard Zuikaku?
all lost so that Yamato could attack

Yamato was lost a few months later to an air attack. Those sailors died anyway, for no gain.

[Commander Stormwolf]

Feel comfortable in your chair at home?

It is the duty of the soldiers,
to preserve the comfort of the gentleman [:'(]

I understand why some didn't want to sacrifice Yamato,
Yamato was a nice hotel at Truk [:D]

[Tiornu]

It was off New Georgia or Kolombangara I think but the DD USS Strong was sunk by a Long Lance at about 45,000 yards or so.

Java Sea also comes to mind regarding hits from ranges where other torpedoes could not match the LL's performance. But I don't know the Guadalcanal ranges offhand.

[Dili]

At battle ranges of 7-15,000 yards, where other nation's torpedoes had to use their "slow" setting (or were out-of-range altogether), the Japanese still had a 50-knot torpedo. That's a big advantage...

But how many times that happened and what was the success rate ? an hit at 45kyds is a lucky hit nothing more.
I can see their specific characteristics have some effect at 10km distance if the sea is full of ships but not in most circumstances. If at much less distances was possible to escape fast torpedos at double distance and not double speed it would be easier to escape the LL. The LL at 12km(when other torpedo models speeds is around 30kt) it needs 8 min to travel. In 8 min a ship or a fleet can do many things and one of them is changing course and speed if in battle. It is a bit like having a naval gun with 50km range. Does it matter? can it hit a ship at that distance ?

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

At battle ranges of 7-15,000 yards, where other nation's torpedoes had to use their "slow" setting (or were out-of-range altogether), the Japanese still had a 50-knot torpedo. That's a big advantage...

But how many times that happened and what was the success rate ? a hit at 45kyds is a lucky hit nothing more.I can see their specific characteristics have some effect at 10km distance if the sea is full of ships but not in most circumstances. If at much less distances was possible to escape fast torpedos at double distance and not double speed it would be easier to escape the LL. The LL at 12km(when other torpedo models speeds is around 30kt) it needs 8 min to travel. In 8 min a ship or a fleet can do many things and one of them is changing course and speed if in battle. It is a bit like having a naval gun with 50km range. Does it matter? can it hit a ship at that distance ?

Where did I say anything about 45,000 yards? That's the kind of range the Kitakami and Oi were designed for (in the "Decisive Battle" strategy), and why they were never brought into the Solomans fighting and eventually converted again.

I was describing "Normal Battle Ranges of 7-15,000 Yards". This is where the performance of the Long Lance was truely superior to everybody else's torpedoes.

[Commander Stormwolf]

long lance was probably the best torpedo ever made,

also helps that long lances worked and USN torpedoes didn't (for the first 2 years)

Santa Cruz USN: doh.. we're trying to sink the hornet.. [:(]
IJN: we're here to help [:D]
USN: thanks [;)]

[Dili]

mike scholl 1 this is the relevant part of what i wrote

I can see their specific characteristics have some effect at 10km distance if the sea is full of ships but not in most circumstances.