gpw

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

lol

Is there a way to make a seperate terrian type that would be cheaper to build rails on, that you could paint under the current rail system, so that "converting" rail is cheaper than building entirely new european rail?

Hrm i'm not sure. I was poking vic to perhaps allow engineers to build over top of existing roads with a differnet road type to replace them. But until then this is the best way i could think of. It's a little different than the way grymme did his version for FITE.

I wanted the price to be more so that the germans really have to work at keeping their rail net moving forward. But not so easy that it would not require a sacrifice. If it's too easy then there is no point to even have different rail.

The way it was now i tested that if you push too much for a couple turns without getting your rail net closer you'll be over 100AP and at a 25% supply penalty pretty quickly. I think it's going to open up a lot of options for play.

Unlike WITE i want logistics to really matter for the germans.

There are a few ways i think germans will handle it (but i'd love to see AAR's of the gpw scen):
* Invest a lot of production into extra engineers. Pros you can keep more of your rail net moving forward. Con you're building engineers instead of replacements for front line troops.
* Focus your engineers near your panzer armies to make sure the tanks get supply. Leave the infantry to clean up low supply areas where you don't expect major resistance.

Also we're made rivers matter for big rivers you need a bridge to cross in most cases. We've also made FOW alot stronger so you will have to use the new recon planes to really get a good view of what's going on.

Since you bring up WITE, there are a few reasons why I don't like what I see in that game and you've hit one, one of the others is the lack of incentive for the Soviets to hold ground and lack of any sort of achievable victory conditions for the German.

Any thoughts on including some sort of mechanic to GPW to address these ?

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

lol

Is there a way to make a seperate terrian type that would be cheaper to build rails on, that you could paint under the current rail system, so that "converting" rail is cheaper than building entirely new european rail?

Hrm i'm not sure. I was poking vic to perhaps allow engineers to build over top of existing roads with a differnet road type to replace them. But until then this is the best way i could think of. It's a little different than the way grymme did his version for FITE.

I wanted the price to be more so that the germans really have to work at keeping their rail net moving forward. But not so easy that it would not require a sacrifice. If it's too easy then there is no point to even have different rail.

The way it was now i tested that if you push too much for a couple turns without getting your rail net closer you'll be over 100AP and at a 25% supply penalty pretty quickly. I think it's going to open up a lot of options for play.

Unlike WITE i want logistics to really matter for the germans.

There are a few ways i think germans will handle it (but i'd love to see AAR's of the gpw scen):
* Invest a lot of production into extra engineers. Pros you can keep more of your rail net moving forward. Con you're building engineers instead of replacements for front line troops.
* Focus your engineers near your panzer armies to make sure the tanks get supply. Leave the infantry to clean up low supply areas where you don't expect major resistance.

Also we're made rivers matter for big rivers you need a bridge to cross in most cases. We've also made FOW alot stronger so you will have to use the new recon planes to really get a good view of what's going on.

Since you bring up WITE, there are a few reasons why I don't like what I see in that game and you've hit one, one of the others is the lack of incentive for the Soviets to hold ground and lack of any sort of achievable victory conditions for the German.

Any thoughts on including some sort of mechanic to GPW to address these ?

Well the one basic event in GPW now is that when you old cities you get 1 PP per city per turn. In the old game i played with a few testers it seemed to be that the germans were pretty good at smashing the russians. Also the germans get to build 50% on captured russian facilities. Also the russians can't evac them.

And i added oil locations to the map that give the units fuel. I know people might argue up and down the germans never would have seen a drop of that oil the games about having fun.

I suppose if enough people complained enough i could make a scen varient that disabled oil from being captured.

If you have any ideas on how to help get soviets to fight up front i'm all ears?

After figuring out how to simulate rail road conversions i feel like nothing is impossible with ATG. :>

[bwheatley]

In my latest test play through

North


Center


Panzer group 3


South
Hard fighting

[bwheatley]

And we actually have a pretty good deal of losses 3 weaks in.


We've lost a tank but we are also pushing very hard and losing a lot of infantry to my desire to drive forward. If it's anything like my last GPW game i'll stall out outside of leningrad and miss moscow by a few hexes before siberians arrive.

[stone10]

Logistics are really important for the Germans in WITE.

[bwheatley]

One tweak i've made from my initial playing was to up the cost of building a railroad so it will be a little harder on the germans to stay in supply. In my case now i have about 10% of my units that are suffering a 25% supply penalty.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: stone10

Logistics are really important for the Germans in WITE.

Yea they are important but I found and argued for tweaks to the modifier. It wasn't painful enough.
In this version i'm hoping for the germans to really have supply difficulties the further down the road they get. But also in this version the soviets can attrit the german player from turn 1 as you see by my losses. The soviets can put up large kiev and smolensk type battles and bleed the germans. In my last game of GPW back in AT I realized i had lost when i burned too many people trying to take leningrad.

As the russians i was able to burn out a few german panzer divisions with in depth defense of the land bridge west of smolensk.

Not saying this scen will be anywhere as in depth as WITE but it will be enjoyable.

[Krafty]

It could be MORE in depth if you wanted. Nothing ATG cant do that WITE can. Perhaps factory evacuation cant be done, but ive always thought that was silly in WITE, shoulda happened automatically when towns are captured, instead of the soviet player being able to Robinovich and clear his entire factory base to siberia and ignore moving troops forward.

What atg does is allows the germans and the soviets to pick their production and upgrades, where WITE pigeon holes you.

Itd be tough, but many specific unit types could be researched and added, slightly tweaked for balancing. I think certain monolithic pieces of equipment should make an appearance. The vaunted Ju87 stuka, and its various versions should be represented, as should the Tiger, KV series, T-34, Pz38t, He-111, IL-2, La-7n, and Me262/Ta-152.

These weapon systems went above and beyond the call of duty, and were much more effective than thier counterparts world wide.

Also since you have production and research, some wastes of your production and research should be available too. Nuclear research, synthetic oil research, super, super heavy tanks, .... germany should of course be able to upgrade the kriegsmarine even though thats pointless. Stuff to distract the german player.


Though to be fair, the one thing people leave out of the Russian - German war, is the naval action in the black sea. Though the scale makes it hard to replicate, since it was basically soviets in fishing boats playing pirate, and german patrol craft and submarines...but if you ask me it was the most interesting naval struggle during the war.

[ernieschwitz]

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

... Perhaps factory evacuation cant be done, but ive always thought that was silly in WITE, shoulda happened automatically when towns are captured, instead of the soviet player being able to Robinovich and clear his entire factory base to siberia and ignore moving troops forward.

Actually it would be possible to make an event that the first time a city was captured it was 1). downgraded in production, and 2). a new factory arrives in Siberia.

[Krafty]

Now thats a winner solution right there. Considering the mass exodus of people from white russia, there werent many people left that the germans could prod in the back to get to work for them. Some sort of downgrade of production upon capture will be necessary anyways. If you could make a factory pop up east of Gorky somewhere when that happens all the better.

It also helps the axis player which is insanely out matched if the scenario keeps historical context, as pockets can hurt a bit more. A pocket around production centers is going to doom whats produced there until its finally reduced and the event fires.

Nothing more irritating to me in my WITE games, than the soviet player properly defending leningrad, never moving the KV factories, and somehow, by magic flying carpets, KV-13s are filling up Guards tank corps in AGS, even tho I hold the rail lines out of town. *Downfall Hitler rage*

If there could even be towns and factories that only produce certain things (like the Ilyushin factory in Moscow, or the KV factory in Leningrad) that would be quite grandiose.

One of my favorite stories of Barbarossa is the siege of Leningrad where soviet KV tanks rolled directly off the production lines and into combat, sans paint or seat covers. Seeing that recreated would be an awesome niche no other scenario of this conflict ive played has ever filled.

[ernieschwitz]

Currently you can make factories that only produce 1 itemtype. Of course you can make an itemtype that only contains 1 item. The only downside to that is that it will show up as a seperate menu in the build production sceen.

So it is definately doable to make these kinds of factories, but it would be more fiddly in the menu for selecting items if they are to be able to be produced in cities.

[Krafty]

Aww

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: bwheatley




Hrm i'm not sure. I was poking vic to perhaps allow engineers to build over top of existing roads with a differnet road type to replace them. But until then this is the best way i could think of. It's a little different than the way grymme did his version for FITE.

I wanted the price to be more so that the germans really have to work at keeping their rail net moving forward. But not so easy that it would not require a sacrifice. If it's too easy then there is no point to even have different rail.

The way it was now i tested that if you push too much for a couple turns without getting your rail net closer you'll be over 100AP and at a 25% supply penalty pretty quickly. I think it's going to open up a lot of options for play.

Unlike WITE i want logistics to really matter for the germans.

There are a few ways i think germans will handle it (but i'd love to see AAR's of the gpw scen):
* Invest a lot of production into extra engineers. Pros you can keep more of your rail net moving forward. Con you're building engineers instead of replacements for front line troops.
* Focus your engineers near your panzer armies to make sure the tanks get supply. Leave the infantry to clean up low supply areas where you don't expect major resistance.

Also we're made rivers matter for big rivers you need a bridge to cross in most cases. We've also made FOW alot stronger so you will have to use the new recon planes to really get a good view of what's going on.

Since you bring up WITE, there are a few reasons why I don't like what I see in that game and you've hit one, one of the others is the lack of incentive for the Soviets to hold ground and lack of any sort of achievable victory conditions for the German.

Any thoughts on including some sort of mechanic to GPW to address these ?

Well the one basic event in GPW now is that when you old cities you get 1 PP per city per turn. In the old game i played with a few testers it seemed to be that the germans were pretty good at smashing the russians. Also the germans get to build 50% on captured russian facilities. Also the russians can't evac them.

And i added oil locations to the map that give the units fuel. I know people might argue up and down the germans never would have seen a drop of that oil the games about having fun.

I suppose if enough people complained enough i could make a scen varient that disabled oil from being captured.

If you have any ideas on how to help get soviets to fight up front i'm all ears?

After figuring out how to simulate rail road conversions i feel like nothing is impossible with ATG. :>

Well one idea tossed around on those forum discussions was to tally VP's every turn and have some sort of progressive total for each side to work towards. Obviously, territory and combat losses would be the most likely variables and each side should have some total metric to reach on territory and avoid on losses. I would imagine these metrics could be changed each year of the war or periodically to reflect historical events.

Sounds like a tall order for sure.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

It could be MORE in depth if you wanted. Nothing ATG cant do that WITE can. Perhaps factory evacuation cant be done, but ive always thought that was silly in WITE, shoulda happened automatically when towns are captured, instead of the soviet player being able to Robinovich and clear his entire factory base to siberia and ignore moving troops forward.

What atg does is allows the germans and the soviets to pick their production and upgrades, where WITE pigeon holes you.

Itd be tough, but many specific unit types could be researched and added, slightly tweaked for balancing. I think certain monolithic pieces of equipment should make an appearance. The vaunted Ju87 stuka, and its various versions should be represented, as should the Tiger, KV series, T-34, Pz38t, He-111, IL-2, La-7n, and Me262/Ta-152.

These weapon systems went above and beyond the call of duty, and were much more effective than thier counterparts world wide.

Also since you have production and research, some wastes of your production and research should be available too. Nuclear research, synthetic oil research, super, super heavy tanks, .... germany should of course be able to upgrade the kriegsmarine even though thats pointless. Stuff to distract the german player.


Though to be fair, the one thing people leave out of the Russian - German war, is the naval action in the black sea. Though the scale makes it hard to replicate, since it was basically soviets in fishing boats playing pirate, and german patrol craft and submarines...but if you ask me it was the most interesting naval struggle during the war.

You could do factory evacuation if you wanted but i like the idea that the germans get something for their push inland. But yea you could just have an event that tripped on change of ownership like ernie said.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Kraftwerk

Now thats a winner solution right there. Considering the mass exodus of people from white russia, there werent many people left that the germans could prod in the back to get to work for them. Some sort of downgrade of production upon capture will be necessary anyways. If you could make a factory pop up east of Gorky somewhere when that happens all the better.

It also helps the axis player which is insanely out matched if the scenario keeps historical context, as pockets can hurt a bit more. A pocket around production centers is going to doom whats produced there until its finally reduced and the event fires.

Nothing more irritating to me in my WITE games, than the soviet player properly defending leningrad, never moving the KV factories, and somehow, by magic flying carpets, KV-13s are filling up Guards tank corps in AGS, even tho I hold the rail lines out of town. *Downfall Hitler rage*

If there could even be towns and factories that only produce certain things (like the Ilyushin factory in Moscow, or the KV factory in Leningrad) that would be quite grandiose.

One of my favorite stories of Barbarossa is the siege of Leningrad where soviet KV tanks rolled directly off the production lines and into combat, sans paint or seat covers. Seeing that recreated would be an awesome niche no other scenario of this conflict ive played has ever filled.

Yea that is awesome. That type of revamp will take awhile though maybe gpw v2 Lol. I'd have to get something good out the door here then spend months adding in all the new sftypes similar to ostfront(capt kruft) & fite(grymme)
but seems like a fun challenge.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.




Since you bring up WITE, there are a few reasons why I don't like what I see in that game and you've hit one, one of the others is the lack of incentive for the Soviets to hold ground and lack of any sort of achievable victory conditions for the German.

Any thoughts on including some sort of mechanic to GPW to address these ?

Well the one basic event in GPW now is that when you old cities you get 1 PP per city per turn. In the old game i played with a few testers it seemed to be that the germans were pretty good at smashing the russians. Also the germans get to build 50% on captured russian facilities. Also the russians can't evac them.

And i added oil locations to the map that give the units fuel. I know people might argue up and down the germans never would have seen a drop of that oil the games about having fun.

I suppose if enough people complained enough i could make a scen varient that disabled oil from being captured.

If you have any ideas on how to help get soviets to fight up front i'm all ears?

After figuring out how to simulate rail road conversions i feel like nothing is impossible with ATG. :>

Well one idea tossed around on those forum discussions was to tally VP's every turn and have some sort of progressive total for each side to work towards. Obviously, territory and combat losses would be the most likely variables and each side should have some total metric to reach on territory and avoid on losses. I would imagine these metrics could be changed each year of the war or periodically to reflect historical events.

Sounds like a tall order for sure.

Hrm tallying victory points that sounds like what i did with my version of WAW from AT2. That might be doable. I just put up 7.1.6 it's got all the latest improvements and bug fixes. After i play test this one a bit hopefully it will be good to go.

[bwheatley]

The newest things we're working on for GPW are the change of Lend lease from factories in the north and south to direct deliveries to the soviets.

We also are creating a card for the germans to move units to/from norway to help interdict the flow of Lend Lease thru murmansk. We will also be simulating persia after may 42 and also the limited deliveries (after dec 41) through siberia.

[bwheatley]

Here is the new isolated abstract of norway for germany to dedicate forces to interdicting LL.

[bwheatley]

Added a type mountain unit which fights 1.5x as good in mountains

Added the 2 german mountain units

[bwheatley]

Also added the 4 soviet mountain divisions of the transcacusus army