Don to Danube Feedback - so how is it?

[Redmarkus5]

I haven't DL'd yet. What's the consensus?

[Smirfy]

I bought it to support the continued production of turned based operational WWII games despite 1/ these scenarios should have been part of WITE in the first place 2/ As an Eastern Front operational and strategic wargame the WITE is FUBAR anyway. (Thats not FUBAR from a German or Russian point of view btw its the game itself). Hopefully war in the west will be a marked improvement with radical new mechanics (but not holding breath)

[Oloren_MatrixForum]

Just finished Uranus.. was fun actually. Looking forward to trying some of the other scenarios.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Oloren

Just finished Uranus.. was fun actually. Looking forward to trying some of the other scenarios.

Thanks. I bought it and played Kharkov '42 - see my short AAR. I'll give Uranus a try.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

I bought it to support the continued production of turned based operational WWII games despite 1/ these scenarios should have been part of WITE in the first place 2/ As an Eastern Front operational and strategic wargame the WITE is FUBAR anyway. (Thats not FUBAR from a German or Russian point of view btw its the game itself). Hopefully war in the west will be a marked improvement with radical new mechanics (but not holding breath)

My motive for buying was the same. I'll buy WitW for the same reason, although they are really going to have to make some fundamental changes if they're going to surprise me.

[Redmarkus5]

Well, turn 1 Uranus with the AI on normal and the Axis army abandoned Stalingrad and started a long trek westwards, a la Napoleon. The game has become a race to see who can move west fastest from the very outset.

I guess I was supposed to create the pocket on Turn 1 - I was one hex short.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Markus,

Given that you're an experienced player, you really should at least have the AI on Challenging. The Normal AI is easy to beat in any scenario once you have a few campaign games under your belt.

Yes, you really should close the pocket on Turn 1 if you want to capture the forces around Stalingrad.

Regards,

- Erik

[Redmarkus5]

The AI suddenly stopped retreating on the second turn and opted to defend in place in unfortified positions during blizzard.

So, I have now formed a sizable pocket west of Stalingrad.

[Redmarkus5]

On turn 4 the AI opted to deploy about 50% of its Panzer forces in a seemingly pointless (failed) attack across the Don near Boguchar instead of focusing on the pocketed Axis troops. The remaining armour did open up a link to the pocket, but I closed this immediately.

[Redmarkus5]

SOV minor victory - rather shambolic performance by the AI, to be frank.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi Erik,

I play on both Normal and Challenging. My observation on Challenging is that the AI gets assistance (beefing up) but it doesn't seem to make smarter choices - it feels unreal to me. Am I imagining that?

I'll repeat my point that Normal should provide a reasonably competent AI and Easy should be the beginner mode.

My main concerns have to do with the AI logic on any setting:

1. Abandoning good positions for bad.
2. Ignoring cities even when they are victory hexes.
3. Attacking in strange places (e.g. repeatedly (3 consecutive turns) across the Don at Boguchar in this instance).
4. Not attacking sometimes, even when it has overwhelming odds, although perhaps this has been fixed?

And so forth...

[ird]

I don't claim to be an expert player but I've almost finished the Cherkassy Pocket scenario and the Soviet AI appears to be making far better tactical choices than has been the case previously. No more piecemeal attacks without the strength to break thru my defences, instead it has massed it's forces to far greater effect.

I also like the idea of a few smaller scenarios which can be played over a day or two. I'm partway thru a GC but it's nice to be able to spend a day or so playing a quick scenario. I'm happy with the new content

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Markus,

It does make smarter choices on Challenging in my experience, especially in terms of where and how to attack, but it's definitely true that Challenging mainly gives it assistance.

Now I know you've been focused on observing the AI's weak spots since the original release. While that's appreciated, it's worth noting that any wargame I own where I've played it for a month I can beat the AI regularly. Discussing the War in the East AI is somewhat tangential to Don to the Danube, which is a content expansion rather than an AI expansion. With that said, the AI in the latest update is improved, but against a player who is in practice it really needs to be set to Challenging.

At release, I think this was the best AI for a game of this scale on the computer to date. I don't think that's mentioned often enough. The AI has improved since release. It still makes some bad moves, but we'll continue to improve it and I know it's given a lot of players a lot of enjoyment and challenge over the year or so since release.

Regards,

- Erik

[Oloren_MatrixForum]

I also failed to close the pocket on T1 and Germans evacuated Stalingrad. Conducted some minor encirclements afterwards and ended up with a Minor Victory. Played with German morale at 110. Was enjoyable and worth replaying.

[CheerfullyInsane]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
At release, I think this was the best AI for a game of this scale on the computer to date. I don't think that's mentioned often enough. The AI has improved since release.

(Thread hijack ON)

I'd agree on that.
This is far and away the most competent AI I've played in an operational game. And I've been playing since the late 80's.
Having said that, it IS still an AI, meaning you can't expect it to show the same capabilities for lateral thinking and long-term planning as a human opponent.
And like almost every other AI, it's better at attrition-warfare than deep penetrations, meaning the Axis '41 AI is still the weakest of the bunch.
I'd also contend that the Normal level is a decent opponent when you're learning the system, but it's equally true that after having played the GC a few times (especially H2H) you need to give some advantages to the AI.
But then, how is that different from playing H2H against someone far better than you?
I'm a competent Russian WitE player, but if I was to go up against someone like Pelton, you can be damn sure I'd insist on some percentage advantage before even contemplating the challenge.
In other words, think of the AI as if you're playing a newbie.

As for what level you need to play on to get a challenge is obviously up to personal skill.
Personally, I'd opt for 120-100. I don't like adjusting my game-play between H2H and AI, so I prefer having 100% for my own side, and 110-100 is a bit on the low side for me.
But if you want a fun experience, try playing the Russians at 120-80......
Most of the stuff you can live with, but the lowered AP is a right bastard to contend with.

(Thread hijack OFF)

[wadortch]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Hi Erik,

I play on both Normal and Challenging. My observation on Challenging is that the AI gets assistance (beefing up) but it doesn't seem to make smarter choices - it feels unreal to me. Am I imagining that?

I'll repeat my point that Normal should provide a reasonably competent AI and Easy should be the beginner mode.

My main concerns have to do with the AI logic on any setting:

1. Abandoning good positions for bad.
2. Ignoring cities even when they are victory hexes.
3. Attacking in strange places (e.g. repeatedly (3 consecutive turns) across the Don at Boguchar in this instance).
4. Not attacking sometimes, even when it has overwhelming odds, although perhaps this has been fixed?

And so forth...

Have you tried playing any earthlings yet in the new scenario's?
AI is at best just a newbie school teacher as Erik suggests.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[Baron von Beer]

[Please don't quote spammers]


G*****it, see guys, you haaaaad to bring elves up in a few threads and see what you've done? [:-] [:)]

[marcpennington]

I've been playing a server game of Red Army Resurgent as the Soviets and just finished (for the third time, thank you hackers) turn 4.

It's a very enjoyable scenario so far, with a good feel for the kinda shoe-string offensive the Red Army was launching, and a crash course on why 1942 Soviet Tank Corps are not 1941 German Panzer Divisions. Closed the pocket on turn 1, and again on each subsequent turn, albeit my opponent has managed to open a corridor each turn as well as he breaks out the pocket to the southwest (abandoning Stalingrad itself on turn 1) and relieves it from the south with his fresh panzer divisions. On turn 4, I've managed to encircle his relieving panzer divisions, so my sense is the pocket is going down next turn, but it has been a very enjoyable and fluid battle so far.

If the Soviets can close the pocket on turn 1, the Sixth Army is basically doomed, IMHO, just a matter of how many turns it can tie down Soviet forces. Attempting to breakout from within the pocket will give 4-6 turns of life at most I think--- basically as long as the Germans can each turn keep getting a token breakthrough to the pocket (which is actually fairly easy, given how hard it is to get decent Soviet defensive units onto the southern/southwestern side of the pocket -- dang slow moving Soviet infantry divisions, especially when the blizzard hits...). I'm curious if anyone has had any luck getting the Sixth Army to hold out anywhere near as long as it did historically by staying in place behind its fortifications and air lifting in supplies.

Oh, and Romanian Cavalry Divisions are the new NKVD Border Regiments. Those buggers don't rout...

[laska2k8]

just bought and I'm happy of this, grand campaigns are still a clue for me, too long, I loose interest because I'm not a great strategist and not so expert. DtD gave new life to this title with smaller and concentrate challenges.
Anyway I played several times (both sides) the Demjansk pocket scenario gaining decisive victories, the only complain is that playing with axis it seems that the key of success is a countinuos manual drop of supplies to frontline units. Played as soviets I realized that axis left all units without supply so they can't defend (and counterattack) properly.
Also I don't understand why on turn 11(or so) the soviets combat values fall to lower values.

max