Welle 16 to 35

[samba_liten]

Mountain, light, jaeger, skijaeger, some LW divisions that were taken over by the Heer, and some other stuff. I don't have as much time as i did to devote to this, but the smaller scope means that i should be able to finish it in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming i can find sources on the TO&E of these things, that is.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Mountain, light, jaeger, skijaeger, some LW divisions that were taken over by the Heer, and some other stuff. I don't have as much time as i did to devote to this, but the smaller scope means that i should be able to finish it in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming i can find sources on the TO&E of these things, that is.

Hi
Can you please tell me what Assault Squads are supposed to represent and why you only have 18 Engineer Squads in a 1. Welle Division (should be 9X3?).

Also where do you get that the 20mm flak were part of the Regiments? AFAIK the Flak Bttr were added to the Art Abt as attachments later in the war.


The Div nA:

- you have Hvy Rifle AT Squads (supposed to represent sMG Teams) even though I never heard about sMG teams having Pz Fausts?

- the Pionier Bat has 48! Squads? I know the Inf Regiments were supposed to have up to 6 Squads, but I can't see the Pio Bat alone having 48 (3x16?)

- Artillerie is definitely wrong. According to Deutsche Artillerie 1934-45 Engelmann/Scheibert, the dotation for a Inf Div44 was 36 10.5 and 9 15.5 from 4.3.44 onward. Previously the 25.th - 29.th waves had a mix of 7.5/8.8 ArtPakAbteilungen (6x7.5 or 3x8.8 per bttr) plus 2 x le Abt (12x10.5) and a s Abt (8-12x15).

Regards

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: MechFO

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Mountain, light, jaeger, skijaeger, some LW divisions that were taken over by the Heer, and some other stuff. I don't have as much time as i did to devote to this, but the smaller scope means that i should be able to finish it in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming i can find sources on the TO&E of these things, that is.

Hi
Can you please tell me what Assault Squads are supposed to represent and why you only have 18 Engineer Squads in a 1. Welle Division (should be 9X3?).

Also where do you get that the 20mm flak were part of the Regiments? AFAIK the Flak Bttr were added to the Art Abt as attachments later in the war.


The Div nA:

- you have Hvy Rifle AT Squads (supposed to represent sMG Teams) even though I never heard about sMG teams having Pz Fausts?

- the Pionier Bat has 48! Squads? I know the Inf Regiments were supposed to have up to 6 Squads, but I can't see the Pio Bat alone having 48 (3x16?)

- Artillerie is definitely wrong. According to Deutsche Artillerie 1934-45 Engelmann/Scheibert, the dotation for a Inf Div44 was 36 10.5 and 9 15.5 from 4.3.44 onward. Previously the 25.th - 29.th waves had a mix of 7.5/8.8 ArtPakAbteilungen (6x7.5 or 3x8.8 per bttr) plus 2 x le Abt (12x10.5) and a s Abt (8-12x15).

Regards

Well, the right/wrong discussion is a matter of interpretation of the KStN. I got a complete list and collection of various .PDF from websites, TO&E etc. that I can share.

The PiBtl should have around 24-36 'pure' squads and perhaps 8-12 ferry engineers to reflect the Brücken Kolonne.

The engineer battalion (partly motorized) was made up of battalion staff,
intelligence platoon (mot.), 1st and 2nd engineer companies
(horsedrawn), 3rd engineer company (mot.), bridge column B (mot.) and
light engineer column (horsedrawn). Its entire complement numbered 17
officers, 1 administrator, 60 non-commissioned officers, 442 engineers, 14
saddle horses, 38 draft horses, 19 horsedrawn vehicles, 9 cars, 24 motor-
cycles and 38 trucks (not counting the bridge and light engineer col-
umns).

As for the artillery... the 24 x 10.5cm and 12 x 15cm seems to be the average/norm; not that they always were able to fill the KSt up in later days of WW2.

An artillery regiment consisted of:
- Regimental staff with staff battery
- Three light units, each with a staff battery and three batteries of
four light 18 field howitzers (FH 18) each, 36 1FH 18 in all
- One heavy unit with a staff battery and three batteries, each with
four heavy 18 field howitzers (sFH 18), 12 sFH 18 each
- Supply trains.

Again, it's how one interprets the KStN and the roster/TO&E is a good overall guidance.

Klink, Oberst

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

That's it! I've finished with the infantry! Get it here!

Next part will start with light/jager and mountain divisions. Then ... well, one thing at a time. But as long as i keep my interest alive I'll eventually get to motorized troops, then armored, and finally SS, Luftwaffe and Navy troops.

EDIT: I should add that I am certain to have missed things. If you find something strange, or thee is something you can't find, give me a shout and I'll look into it. I'll add what's missing or at least explain why it's not been included. Finally, i should say that you are free to do with the document what you like. Host it, email it etc. Just please leave my name in there somewhere!

Friedrich,

I got a whole motley collection of various TO&E etc. and you are more than welcome to request/receive the collections of the Oberst I am currently creating .TOE files for Kharkov '43 and look what kid of tedious work it is...

Klink, Oberst

[samba_liten]

ORIGINAL: MechFO

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Mountain, light, jaeger, skijaeger, some LW divisions that were taken over by the Heer, and some other stuff. I don't have as much time as i did to devote to this, but the smaller scope means that i should be able to finish it in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming i can find sources on the TO&E of these things, that is.

Hi
Can you please tell me what Assault Squads are supposed to represent and why you only have 18 Engineer Squads in a 1. Welle Division (should be 9X3?).

The assault squads represent the pioneer platoon that was attached to each regiment according to this. The pioneer battalion itself is quite beyond me. Well spotted. I'll change that.

Also where do you get that the 20mm flak were part of the Regiments? AFAIK the Flak Bttr were added to the Art Abt as attachments later in the war.

Scroll to the bottom of this page ,and you will see a list of weapons assigned to a division of the 1st welle. It includes 12 20mm aa guns. I couldn't figure out where they belonged historically, so i made the assumption that in TOAW 3terms they were likely to be somewhere close to the front line, i.e. the regiments.

The Div nA:

- you have Hvy Rifle AT Squads (supposed to represent sMG Teams) even though I never heard about sMG teams having Pz Fausts?

Firstly, I use heavy rifle squads to represent heavy machine-gun units. I have assigned
one such squad for each heavy machine-gun historically present. I am of the opinion that
the in-game heavy machine-guns give an unfair advantage when fighting armour, since
in the German army the standard heavy machine-gun was 7.92mm calibre, and therefore
not particularly effective against armour. I also believe that weapons like the MG34 and
42 were crew-served, but essentially used as a part of the parent unit, i.e. these weapons,
even if they were assigned to a separate heavy weapons company, would be spread out
among the other companies according to where they could do the most good. For that
reason I can live with any extra manpower resulting from the choice of a rifle squad,
rather than a crew.

This from the introduction that i think you were referring to.

As i said there, i believe the MGs would be spread out among the companies. Further, an MG team could consist of anything from 2-5 or 6 men, going by my reading. Late war, i don't see why these men shouldn't carry a panzerfaust or two, seeing as how the proliferation of tanks made AT resources much more important. Further, the worsening material situation of the Heer meant that "proper" AT resources were increasingly rare.

- the Pionier Bat has 48! Squads? I know the Inf Regiments were supposed to have up to 6 Squads, but I can't see the Pio Bat alone having 48 (3x16?)

This is from "Grundgliederung inf.div.44 which you can look at here. (From AHF) It is a bit hard to read, but i get 48 squads.

- Artillerie is definitely wrong. According to Deutsche Artillerie 1934-45 Engelmann/Scheibert, the dotation for a Inf Div44 was 36 10.5 and 9 15.5 from 4.3.44 onward. Previously the 25.th - 29.th waves had a mix of 7.5/8.8 ArtPakAbteilungen (6x7.5 or 3x8.8 per bttr) plus 2 x le Abt (12x10.5) and a s Abt (8-12x15).

The artillery numbers are from here. (lexikon der wehrmacht, scroll down a bit and you'll find the division n.A)

[samba_liten]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Friedrich,

I got a whole motley collection of various TO&E etc. and you are more than welcome to request/receive the collections of the Oberst I am currently creating .TOE files for Kharkov '43 and look what kid of tedious work it is...

Klink, Oberst
[snipped the images]

I know what you're saying. This is how far i've gotten with my Berlin effort, without even worrying about the exact TO&E that much yet.

[samba_liten]

Looking into the artillery. I assumed the first time around that the stabs battery would include 4 guns, same as the other batteries. That doesn't seem to have been the case. KStN 583 shows no guns, but several half-tracks and 2 Pz.III forward observer tanks. On the other hand, Artillerie 1941-44.pdf from sturmpanzer.com lists that KStN as a cavalry artillery regiment. I wish i had the time to track down the original KStN for all units and redo this thing that way! Maybe if i quit my day job and divorce my wife...[8|]

Anyway, the conclusion has to be, for now, that my list for the n.A division has 12 light guns too many. That is, 4 per battalion. And 4 too many heavy guns.

One final edit before i quit with the arty...

Dug into Tessin. For the div. n.A the KsTN i'm after is 403 for the stab and 433 for the battery. 433 is available on wwiidaybyday.com, but i cant find 403 anywhere. Anyway, Tessin goes on to list 3 l.F.H batteries with 3 guns each, 6 l.F.H batteries with 4 guns each, 3 batteries of s.F.H with 3 guns each. That makes 33 l.F.H and 9 s.F.H.

That leaves 3 l.F.H difference between your numbers and Tessins. I suppose we could account for them by assuming KStN 401 stb.u.stbs.bttr.A.R. includes 3 l.F.H., same as the stab of a battalion. But then we are assuming that KStN 403 stb.u.stbs.bttr.s.F.H.abt. does not include a 3 gun battery. Opinions?

And finally, what about Lexikon der Wehrmacht?

Artillerieregiment mit
-Stabsbatterie
-3 leichte Abteilung (10,5 cm leFH) mit Stabsbatterie und 3 Batterien zu je 4 Geschützen.
-1 schwere Abteilung (15 cm sFH) mit Stabsbatterie und 3 Batterien zu je 4 Geschützen.
Vorgesehen war, daß eine leichte und die schwere Abteilung im mot.Zug bewegt werden sollten (meist RSO).

Edited for style and content. Twice.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Looking into the artillery. I assumed the first time around that the stabs battery would include 4 guns, same as the other batteries. That doesn't seem to have been the case. KStN 583 shows no guns, but several half-tracks and 2 Pz.III forward observer tanks. On the other hand, Artillerie 1941-44.pdf from sturmpanzer.com lists that KStN as a cavalry artillery regiment. I wish i had the time to track down the original KStN for all units and redo this thing that way! Maybe if i quit my day job and divorce my wife...[8|]

Anyway, the conclusion has to be, for now, that my list for the n.A division has 12 light guns too many. That is, 4 per battalion. And 4 too many heavy guns.

One final edit before i quit with the arty...

Dug into Tessin. For the div. n.A the KsTN i'm after is 403 for the stab and 433 for the battery. 433 is available on wwiidaybyday.com, but i cant find 403 anywhere. Anyway, Tessin goes on to list 3 l.F.H batteries with 3 guns each, 6 l.F.H batteries with 4 guns each, 3 batteries of s.F.H with 3 guns each. That makes 33 l.F.H and 9 s.F.H.

That leaves 3 l.F.H difference between your numbers and Tessins. I suppose we could account for them by assuming KStN 401 stb.u.stbs.bttr.A.R. includes 3 l.F.H., same as the stab of a battalion. But then we are assuming that KStN 403 stb.u.stbs.bttr.s.F.H.abt. does not include a 3 gun battery. Opinions?

And finally, what about Lexikon der Wehrmacht?

Artillerieregiment mit
-Stabsbatterie
-3 leichte Abteilung (10,5 cm leFH) mit Stabsbatterie und 3 Batterien zu je 4 Geschützen.
-1 schwere Abteilung (15 cm sFH) mit Stabsbatterie und 3 Batterien zu je 4 Geschützen.
Vorgesehen war, daß eine leichte und die schwere Abteilung im mot.Zug bewegt werden sollten (meist RSO).

Edited for style and content. Twice.

A Stabs Bttr will never have any guns. That is universal across any army. A Stabs Bttr is where the Feuerführung/Feuerleitung and, depending on organization, logistics are concentrated. The discrepancy of gun numbers between different sources comes from that there were about 3 different le FH Abt TOE's in service concurrently at the end of 43, early 44. 2x6, 3x3 and 3x4. I'd go with the 3x4 version as standard due to that being the preferred option, the others being expedients due to what was available on hand.

For the s Abt both 3x3 or 3x4 are reasonable.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Also where do you get that the 20mm flak were part of the Regiments? AFAIK the Flak Bttr were added to the Art Abt as attachments later in the war.

Scroll to the bottom of this page ,and you will see a list of weapons assigned to a division of the 1st welle. It includes 12 20mm aa guns. I couldn't figure out where they belonged historically, so i made the assumption that in TOAW 3terms they were likely to be somewhere close to the front line, i.e. the regiments.

I've been wondering where those 20mm come from myself, since I can't find it on any KSTN of that period. I have read that they belonged to a MK company that was habitually attached to Inf Divisions, so strictly speaking not organic. This would explain why they are often mentioned but don't show up in KSTN's until the 37mm AA in the nA KSTN's of 43.

As to where the MK companies were integrated organisation wise, it seems to be either in the Pz Jg Abt (concurrent with the later praxis), but I have also seen it being attached to the Art Reg. Due to the Pz Jg Abt being where they officially ended up in later on, I'd personally go with that option, but this is really a grey area.

ORIGINAL: polarenper

ORIGINAL: MechFO

The Div nA:

- you have Hvy Rifle AT Squads (supposed to represent sMG Teams) even though I never heard about sMG teams having Pz Fausts?

Firstly, I use heavy rifle squads to represent heavy machine-gun units. I have assigned
one such squad for each heavy machine-gun historically present. I am of the opinion that
the in-game heavy machine-guns give an unfair advantage when fighting armour, since
in the German army the standard heavy machine-gun was 7.92mm calibre, and therefore
not particularly effective against armour. I also believe that weapons like the MG34 and
42 were crew-served, but essentially used as a part of the parent unit, i.e. these weapons,
even if they were assigned to a separate heavy weapons company, would be spread out
among the other companies according to where they could do the most good. For that
reason I can live with any extra manpower resulting from the choice of a rifle squad,
rather than a crew.

This from the introduction that i think you were referring to.

As i said there, i believe the MGs would be spread out among the companies. Further, an MG team could consist of anything from 2-5 or 6 men, going by my reading. Late war, i don't see why these men shouldn't carry a panzerfaust or two, seeing as how the proliferation of tanks made AT resources much more important. Further, the worsening material situation of the Heer meant that "proper" AT resources were increasingly rare.

Thanks for the explanation. The reason for my doubting them having PzF is weight. No MG team will have the spare carrying capacity. Any spare capacity would be used for ammunition.

ORIGINAL: polarenper

ORIGINAL: MechFO

- the Pionier Bat has 48! Squads? I know the Inf Regiments were supposed to have up to 6 Squads, but I can't see the Pio Bat alone having 48 (3x16?)

This is from "Grundgliederung inf.div.44 which you can look at here. (From AHF) It is a bit hard to read, but i get 48 squads.

Thanks for the file, I didn't have it in that detail. As to your numbers, I still can't see how you arrive at 48 Squads for the Pio Bat. The Pio Squads in the Regiments are already accounted for by the Assualt AT Squads, which leaves the standard 3x9 Squads in the Pio Bat.

I've just noticed you are missing the Schw Zug of every Pio Kp in a Pio Bat with 2 sMG and 2 81mm Gw. This can be seen in your KSTN. AFAIK the Pio Kp started having the Schw Zug from 42 onward.

[samba_liten]

It's beginning to look like i should revise at least the first welle. Anyway, I've figured out where my numbers came from. The three companies are shown with 9 l.M.G squads each. In addition the have 6 flamethrowers each. I've counted them in as squads, for some reason. Is there a flamethrower in the standard .eqp file?
EDIT: I can see 3 (i thik it's a 3!) mortars for each kp. but no schwere kp?

Keep it coming if you have the patience. I'm keeping a list of things i should change!

[sPzAbt653]

Is there a flamethrower in the standard .eqp file?

I don't think so. The only one I'm aware of is the mounted 251/16 in the SP Gun section.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Panama

I'm beginning to think most everyone on this forum is either unemployed or retired. [:D]

Rrrong! *Arnie accent* Please rephrase Kamerad Panama... devoted, fanatic, the Old Guard, dedicated, nicotine and codeine junkies, or simply... self-employed and very well organized *Germans perhaps...*

I started sharing my collection of TO&E, OOB, .pdf via Dropbox with Fritz aka polarenper, so everybody is welcome to access it and share stuff *which is in public domain etc.*.

Klink, Oberst
self-employed, hard working, able admin of STALAG13

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

It's beginning to look like i should revise at least the first welle. Anyway, I've figured out where my numbers came from. The three companies are shown with 9 l.M.G squads each. In addition the have 6 flamethrowers each. I've counted them in as squads, for some reason. Is there a flamethrower in the standard .eqp file?
EDIT: I can see 3 (i thik it's a 3!) mortars for each kp. but no schwere kp?

Keep it coming if you have the patience. I'm keeping a list of things i should change!

Pio Bats had no schwere Kp. Instead each Kp had a schwere Zug. Each Zug in turn had 2 sMG and 2 81mm Gw. You can see this in the 44 B Pdf of the file you posted.

I haven't really had time to look over things yet, but I'll let you know if I find anything.

[samba_liten]

Ok, i couldn't resist it. I went and started a revision of the 1st Welle, using original KStN as far as possible. It's time consuming, and not always possible to locate the KStN, but it's yielded quite different numbers from the sources i used before. I've also given up on the stock .eqp, and assumed use of a WW2 specific .eqp. Since the one I have been working with for my Berlin scenario includes different kinds of MG's for the Germans, i have rendered all squads as rifle squads, except various personnel in HQ units armed only with rifles, who are shown as light rifle squads. I have also done away with the light rifle squads in the AT units etc. These are now shown simply as MG's.

Details to follow.

[samba_liten]

Divisional Headquarters
(KstN 21 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn211nov41.htm )
10 Light Rifle squads (13 men/squad)
2 LMG
27 Trucks

An infantry division at this time had three regiments, each
with three battalions, and a Stab.

Total equipment for 1 regiment:

Stab:
(KstN 101(R) http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn101r1okt37.htm )
2 Light Rifle Squads
2 Horse Drawn Wagons
2 Trucks
1 Motorcycle Squad

Nachrichtenzug des Stabes eines Infanterieregiments:
(KStN 221 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn2215okt37.htm )
2 Light Rifle Squads
3 Horse Drawn Wagons

Rgts.Pio.Zug
(KstN 196 original not found. Reference Tessin vol.15 p. 151, for numbers of weapons; http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011 ... welle.html )
4 Pioneer Squads
3 LMG

Infanteriegeschutzkompanie (infantry gun company):
(KStN 171 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1711okt37.htm )
6 7.5 cm le.IG 18
2 15 cm s.IG 33
15 Horse Drawn Wagons

Infanteriepanzerabwehrkompanie:
(KStN 184 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1841okt37.htm )
4 l.MG
12 3.7 cm PAK
39 Trucks

Radf. Zug (Bicycle Platoon):
(KStN 353, only one zug used. http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn3531sept39.htm )
3 Bicycle Squads
3 l.M.G

leichte infanteriekolonne:
(KStN 201 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn201t20okt39.htm )
2 Light Rifle Squads
37 Horse Drawn Wagons

Next, the 3 Battalions;

Stab:
(KStN: 111(R) http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1111okt37.htm)
1 Bicycle Squad
3 Light Rifle Squads
3 Trucks
8 Horse Drawn Wagons

M.G.KP.:
(Tessin gives KStN 151 C, http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn151c1feb41.htm which is dated 1941. An alternative is KStN 151 (A), http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn151a1okt37.htm dated 1937. The difference being the absence of mortars in the latter. Below I have used 151 C. )
12 s.MG
4 Rifle Squads
6 8cm Mortars
24 Horse Drawn Wagons

Schutzen Kompanie x 3
(KStN 131 C http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131ct23okt39.htm )
1 company
1 Light Rifle Squad
9 Rifle Squads
4 LMG
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011 ... welle.html gives 1 company as
9 Rifle Squads
2 LMG
3 5cm Mortars
take your pick!

Complete Regiment:
18 Light Rifle Squads
153 Horse Drawn Wagons
50 Trucks
1 Motorcycle Squad
4 Pioneer Squads
14 l.MG
36 s.MG
6 7.5 cm Le.IG 18
2 15 cm s.IG 33
12 3.7 cm PAK
6 Bicycle Squads
39 Rifle Squads
18 8 cm Mortars

panzerjaegerabteilung:
Stab including signals unit:
(KStN 1106 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11061nov41.htm & 1192 quoted at feldgrau forums )
4 Light Rifle Squads
40 Trucks
17 Jeeps

panzerjaegerkompanie x3:
(KStN 1141 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11411nov41.htm )
1 company:
6 l.MG
12 3.7 cm PAK
22 Trucks
4 Jeeps

radf.schwadr:
(KStN 353 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn3531sept39.htm )
10 Bicycle Squads
18 l.MG
3 5 cm Mortars
7 Trucks

Complete panzerjaegerabteilung:
4 Light Rifle Squads
113 Trucks
29 Jeeps
36 l.MG
36 3.7 cm PAK
10 Bicycle Squads
3 5 cm Mortars
12 2 cm Flak (These are listen in one source [Div.Tr.Inf.Div. 1Welle] as Masch.Gew.Kp.(S)(mot Z.). I have no KStN for it, nor does it appear in Tessins Gliederung for the 1st Welle. If you include it, I would also include 12 additional trucks.)

[sPzAbt653]

I've also given up on the stock .eqp, and assumed use of a WW2 specific .eqp.

Are you using the Wilson.eqp or Weichs.eqp ? (If you don't know which is which, see posts 24 and 25 in the TOE thread).

Do you plan on doing a .pdf similar to the previous one you did ?

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Rgts.Pio.Zug
(KstN 196 original not found. Reference Tessin vol.15 p. 151, for numbers of weapons; http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011 ... welle.html )
4 Pioneer Squads
3 LMG

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... welle.html

Regimental Pio Platoon seems to have had 3 Squads in 41.

ORIGINAL: polarenper
Schutzen Kompanie x 3
(KStN 131 C http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131ct23okt39.htm )
1 company
1 Light Rifle Squad
9 Rifle Squads
4 LMG
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011 ... welle.html gives 1 company as
9 Rifle Squads
2 LMG
3 5cm Mortars
take your pick!

Infantry Platoons were increased to 4 Squads in 40-41. Also the ATR's are missing.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... welle.html

ORIGINAL: polarenper
panzerjaegerabteilung:

radf.schwadr:
(KStN 353 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn3531sept39.htm )
10 Bicycle Squads
18 l.MG
3 5 cm Mortars
7 Trucks

Never seen Infantry attached to Divisional AT units. Where did you get this from?


For some more general information:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Gen ... te_map.htm

I can't double check all his sources but what he does mention seems to check out.

[samba_liten]

ORIGINAL: MechFO

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Rgts.Pio.Zug
(KstN 196 original not found. Reference Tessin vol.15 p. 151, for numbers of weapons; http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011 ... welle.html )
4 Pioneer Squads
3 LMG

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... welle.html

Regimental Pio Platoon seems to have had 3 Squads in 41.

ORIGINAL: polarenper
Schutzen Kompanie x 3
(KStN 131 C http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131ct23okt39.htm )
1 company
1 Light Rifle Squad
9 Rifle Squads
4 LMG
http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/011 ... welle.html gives 1 company as
9 Rifle Squads
2 LMG
3 5cm Mortars
take your pick!

Infantry Platoons were increased to 4 Squads in 40-41. Also the ATR's are missing.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... welle.html

ORIGINAL: polarenper
panzerjaegerabteilung:

radf.schwadr:
(KStN 353 http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn3531sept39.htm )
10 Bicycle Squads
18 l.MG
3 5 cm Mortars
7 Trucks

Never seen Infantry attached to Divisional AT units. Where did you get this from?


For some more general information:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Gen ... te_map.htm

I can't double check all his sources but what he does mention seems to check out.

I don't know if i want to redo the whole document at the moment. I'll see how it goes with that.

For the pioneer zug;
I'm talking 1939 for the 1st welle, rather than 1941. Now, KStN 196 which Tessin quotes for the zug is dated 1940, but i can't find a copy of it, so it is irrelevant for our purposes. Tessin gives 77 men for this unit, and the closest KStN i found, 714, for a motorized light pionierkompanie dated 1938, gives 58 men with 11 pistols, 3 l.MG and 47 rifles. Hence i think 4 squads is a reasonable guess for a non-motorized unit in 1939.

Next,the schutzen kompanie.
The KStN i quoted shows 4 gruppen of 7 men each, which seems a bit small to warrant a whole rifle squad each, but then again...
I'm aware of the missing AT-rifles, and for the moment i have also left out the 5cm mortars. Both weapons appear on KStN 131 (C), dated 1941, which may be closer to the one used in 1939 than the one i used.

The AT unit is straight from Tessin. As for the Bayonet strength site, i am aware of it, but i am trying to avoid it at the moment. I want to find my own interpretation of the available sources. I did consult the Buchner book he quotes back when i first started this project, but found it lacked detail on the variations between welles.

Anyway, Lexikon der Wehrmacht and Dr. Leo both show the bicycle squadron attached to the recon unit, along with a cavalry unit and a heavy (armoured car) unit. Tessin shows, confusingly, only the bicycle unit, and no recon unit at all!

I'll need to re-evaluate that bit when i continue.

[Oberst_Klink]

@polarenper

The easiest way is to proceed as you've already done Friedrich. I simply would add the source. It really depends on the scenario designer, as well as the documents one uses for relevant TO&E adjustments.

@MechFO
Eidgenosse, send me an email in order to add you to my Dropbox. We have already quite a collection of reference material.

oberst_klink@btopenworld.com

Klink, Oberst

[samba_liten]

I'll keep fiddling with the KStN, and try to sneak in a few new formations here and there. I'll follow the new format with links or at least quotations for sources. Please keep up the corrections. Makes it easier to get to the right (or at least closest) source. Turns out even Tessin (shock! horror!) is wrong sometimes... Now if i could only justify spending $500 on those new reference volumes...