Wild Sheep Chase - obvert (J) vs JocMeister (A)

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]27 May 1942[/font]
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subs: Near Karachi I-32 braves the British escorts and drops the AKV Engadine with 2 torpedoes in 2 separate attacks. It attacks the convoy a third time and hits xAK Bhima with one, and just after there were sinking sounds. This is my new favorite sub! She'll back off a bit after rattling the hornet's nest and return to the area in a few weeks. No aircraft are shown as lost after the turn unfortunately. I was hoping for a load of B-17s.

Our ASW is beginning to find the subs better and drop a few hits on them. Today DDs Minekaze, Tsuta and Fuyo hit KVX with one solid penetrating hit and another damaging near miss. This should send it back to heal for a while. Since hitting The sub tender in Perth and a few subs as well, there have been markedly fewer attacks and sightings around the DEI.

West Australia: All planes flew today for the Mini-KB, but a stiffer resistance was found over Perth, with another Kittyhawk group sent in. Still, the attack was very successful if costly. As these are not elite pilots this is completely worth the cost.Tomorrow we'll send in only sweeps to see what that does from a better altitude. I'm especially happy about the subs, if those reports are accurate. Two subs could be worth over 20 ships with who knows what lost with them.
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Morning Air attack on Perth , at 49,147

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 105 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
B5N1 Kate x 17
B5N2 Kate x 36
D3A1 Val x 14


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 32


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CM Krakatau, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Colac, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CM Willem v d Zaan, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Camphuys, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AMC Westralia, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Danae, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Durban, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CM Rigel, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Jupiter, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Seal, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAP Pijnacker Hordijk, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS KVIII, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
6 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
14 x B5N1 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
6 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Port Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.76 Sqn RAAF with Kittyhawk IA (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
No.77 Sqn RAAF with Kittyhawk IA (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes

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So Pac: B-17s plaster Noumea today. I wonder if this coincides with the blip still moving in this direction that sigint has been picking up for several days. One Mavis is damaged and the rest are moved to Koumac.

China: Chihking continues to be plastered from the air. Sweep over Chungking but no bombing as airbases move forward to get Sallys in normal range.

PI: The Pts at Busuanga will be visited by TBs again tomorrow. One division is still awaiting transport at Naga, and the other convoys are moving out.

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CM William van der Zaan. Another Dutch minelayer sunk. How many are there?

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[ny59giants]

I don't have the answers to those two questions. I have just over a week of game time with the new stacking limits in place. I will need to go through a trial and error phase to find out what works and what doesn't work.

[witpqs]

Guys, just in case it isn't clear from JWE's quotation: There is no prohibition against moving units into an over stacked hex. NY59Giants ran into some kind of movement bug. You are allowed to over stack as massively as you choose, and the game engine will penalize you accordingly.

My opponents and I have been hit with the penalty at various times and at various levels. The kind of over stacking that NY59Giants mentioned will drain all supplies within range like a black hole if you let it continue!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Guys, just in case it isn't clear from JWE's quotation: There is no prohibition against moving units into an over stacked hex. NY59Giants ran into some kind of movement bug. You are allowed to over stack as massively as you choose, and the game engine will penalize you accordingly.

My opponents and I have been hit with the penalty at various times and at various levels. The kind of over stacking that NY59Giants mentioned will drain all supplies within range like a black hole if you let it continue!

Aha. Thanks. So it's possible but risky in most situations. Thanks.

How have you found the use of artillery units changed by these limits? I would think it would be hard to choose to use up a portion of the stacking limit with a non-AV type of unit in a hex with strong defense. Do you think it's still worth it?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: obvert

It's a bit too bad you can't move troops through a hex that is overstacked as this could limit rotating troops in and out to wear down determined defenders unless there were multiple routes available. But I guess this mirrors real conditions better where terrain and pinch points were actually very important.

(Any implementation of this will be too late to help the Allies much in China after my opponent revealed he actually has more men now in China than the total number of supply there! While I have been wary of attacking big stacks, this is a useful piece of information to let me try one out once all troops are in place).

Do the levels of development of a base give it a greater stacking limit or are they fixed amounts?

Another question. Would this make arty less useful in low stacking limit hexes where you'd want to have as much AV per unit as possible?

Been using stacking limits in two PBMs for months. Totally love them - how could we have ever played without them - that's how good they are overall.

There is no prohibition on moving into or through an over stacked hex; he must have run into an unrecognized movement bug (I've seen one or two posted in Tech Support).

The stacking level (I forget the precise term and don't have the game open) for a unit is different from the load cost. In many case they are similar, but sometimes a good deal different. If memory serves me well: most artillery units seem to have a fairly low stacking value.

Each individual hex (with or without a base) got it's own stacking limit based on factors that they mentioned in threads on the subject. Basically (from my observations):

- The more open the terrain the higher the limit.
- The more developed the hex the higher the limit (roads, agriculture, towns & cities and such).
- The presence of waterways raises the limit.
- Small islands and atolls got their stacking limits adjusted as well, all that I have noticed changed went down from the stock limits. I don't recall but 6,000 might still be the lowest limit they assigned.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Guys, just in case it isn't clear from JWE's quotation: There is no prohibition against moving units into an over stacked hex. NY59Giants ran into some kind of movement bug. You are allowed to over stack as massively as you choose, and the game engine will penalize you accordingly.

My opponents and I have been hit with the penalty at various times and at various levels. The kind of over stacking that NY59Giants mentioned will drain all supplies within range like a black hole if you let it continue!

Aha. Thanks. So it's possible but risky in most situations. Thanks.

How have you found the use of artillery units changed by these limits? I would think it would be hard to choose to use up a portion of the stacking limit with a non-AV type of unit in a hex with strong defense. Do you think it's still worth it?

Arty seems to flow in nicely and pretty much in line with how they re-worked it a couple of years ago. Meaning that arty works best 1) as part of a combined arms assault (or defense), and 2) to bombard and burn enemy supplies during a siege. Certainly no arty death stars.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: obvert

It's a bit too bad you can't move troops through a hex that is overstacked as this could limit rotating troops in and out to wear down determined defenders unless there were multiple routes available. But I guess this mirrors real conditions better where terrain and pinch points were actually very important.

(Any implementation of this will be too late to help the Allies much in China after my opponent revealed he actually has more men now in China than the total number of supply there! While I have been wary of attacking big stacks, this is a useful piece of information to let me try one out once all troops are in place).

Do the levels of development of a base give it a greater stacking limit or are they fixed amounts?

Another question. Would this make arty less useful in low stacking limit hexes where you'd want to have as much AV per unit as possible?

Been using stacking limits in two PBMs for months. Totally love them - how could we have ever played without them - that's how good they are overall.

There is no prohibition on moving into or through an over stacked hex; he must have run into an unrecognized movement bug (I've seen one or two posted in Tech Support).

The stacking level (I forget the precise term and don't have the game open) for a unit is different from the load cost. In many case they are similar, but sometimes a good deal different. If memory serves me well: most artillery units seem to have a fairly low stacking value.

Each individual hex (with or without a base) got it's own stacking limit based on factors that they mentioned in threads on the subject. Basically (from my observations):

- The more open the terrain the higher the limit.
- The more developed the hex the higher the limit (roads, agriculture, towns & cities and such).
- The presence of waterways raises the limit.
- Small islands and atolls got their stacking limits adjusted as well, all that I have noticed changed went down from the stock limits. I don't recall but 6,000 might still be the lowest limit they assigned.

This all sounds great to me. Thanks for the details. Once Jocke gets back from his weekend away we'll consider adding these to our game.

[witpqs]

The one caveat is to look at where you might be over stacked before you switch over, else the nasty "supply black hole" surprise! [:D]

And I just realized that exceptions to the "more open" the terrain is the higher the limit would be the desert types. Open, yes. Generally hospitable, no!

[ny59giants]

Give yourselves a date like June 15th for the switch over. That will allow both of you to make moves now to get under the limits or at least enough so you don't end up being in as bad a shape as I ended up.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The one caveat is to look at where you might be over stacked before you switch over, else the nasty "supply black hole" surprise! [:D]

And I just realized that exceptions to the "more open" the terrain is the higher the limit would be the desert types. Open, yes. Generally hospitable, no!

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Give yourselves a date like June 15th for the switch over. That will allow both of you to make moves now to get under the limits or at least enough so you don't end up being in as bad a shape as I ended up.

Considering I'm building two stacks of around 6,000 AV each in China, I might need a bit more than a few weeks to get this sorted after I push these forward! [;)] I definitely don't want to let a bunch of supply evaporate after carefully sequestering it for R n D and other economic upgrades and repairs. If we do this I would lean toward August 1 to switch.

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]Singapore to Fusan; Will it Work?[/font]
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It's been nearly a month since the rail/road route through China has been secured. I've been sending all subsequent fuel shipment to Singapore and some oil as well just to see if it would begin to draw north. So far it continues to build in Singapore.

Recently I've tried several tactics to get it to move up. Firstly I stopped sending fuel to Hong Kong and began one CS convoy pulling it out. Then I began two more in Shanghai. After this I noticed Oil and then fuel going down in Port Arthur, in spite of having it set to keep both.

I've also started several fuel CS convoys from Fusan to Fukuoka and moved the Combined Fleet HQ there. Still, Singapore continues to hold onto fuel, oil and resources.

What should I try next? Or is it just a waiting game, and how long might it take to begin to draw? Here is a pic with some info from Singapore.

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[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]28 May 1942[/font]
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PI: At Busuanga the four TBs came in to wipe out the remaining PTs here and get some more combat experience. They first find 3 MTBs and sink 2. Then they locate 3 Philippine PTs and sink 1 of those.

West Australia: No flights today from the Mini-KB due to weather. Grrrrrrr.

So Pac: 24 B-17s hit Noumea again. Here we go. Although I'd rather have them here than hitting bases in New Guinea.

China: At Kunming the 33rd Division, 3 tank units and most of the 55th division attack with a DA. Surprisingly they take the base with a 2 to 1. The Chinese units lose over a third of their strength. One division and 2 tank units will pursue, as they are retreating toward Mengtze and I don't want a still strong Corps running around out here.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Kunming (69,48)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 27289 troops, 261 guns, 327 vehicles, Assault Value = 1047

Defending force 14382 troops, 33 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 556

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0

Japanese adjusted assault: 1506

Allied adjusted defense: 568

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Kunming !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1829 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 141 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 23 disabled
Vehicles lost 32 (1 destroyed, 31 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
5662 casualties reported
Squads: 136 destroyed, 70 disabled
Non Combat: 171 destroyed, 97 disabled
Engineers: 34 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 24 (24 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 4


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
1st Tank Regiment
112th Infantry Regiment
143rd Infantry Regiment
55th Engineer Regiment
33rd Division
14th Tank Regiment
144th Infantry Regiment
6th Tank Regiment
55th Mountain Gun Regiment
25th Army
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
13th Burma Rifles Battalion
5th Chinese Corps
NCAC
16th Chinese Base Force

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At Chungking 3 P-40s are damaged on the field. Odd they are still here if they're not going to contest the base.

No Pac: Nothing is happening up here at all. This is good. All training units that will be here semi-permanently have moved out and are spread over the Aleutians. 45 Nells form the backbone of this force, and 30 zeros split over three bases form the fighter support. Now that there is a good pool of trained pilots it will be easy to switch out the trainees and get skilled pilots here should the action commence. There are also Rufes and Vals, as well as Jakes and Dinahs.

The long term plan is to hold until the winter. If the US CVs are in a known location far away and the ground forces are available, a further move on Alaska will be considered, landing south of Anchorage with two plus divisions and aiming to take out all bases nearby and destroy the forces there. If this were to happen it would most likely be less than a month before the winter rules set in to keep good air support possibility but limit the time-frame for any counter measures.

This is just a fun fantasy scenario, but could happen if this area is ignored by the Allies.

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[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]29 May 1942[/font]
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subs: As an attempt to get more out of the CHa sub chasers I've put them into 4 ship TFs near Ominato. There are always 1 or 2 US subs near here. So far this has been an ugly stalemate with every torpedo attack resulting in duds and no DC attacks in return.

The change has done nothing so far. Plunger duds on CHa-33 and none of the 4 ships can find the sub to attack.

I-121 finds a fat convoy near North Male and is sighted by an escort and given a small damaging hit. Then sighted again and given another small hit. Two xAPs are here and CL Sumatra, so I think there is some fairly important stuff in those ships. I wonder where this is going?

West Australia: Sweeps head out from the Mini-KB as it moves toward Carnarvon and find a full CAP of 30 Kittyhawks above the base. The zeros decimate the Australian planes in two separate battles.

The numbers in the info screen show conflicting kills however. Are these also subject to FOW? Which numbers are correct?

On the right side the totals show 19 Allied planes lost, and on the previous screen it showed 15 A to A losses for them. Then in the breakdown of planes it shows 24 total and 21 A to A losses for Kittyhawks. Hmmm.

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Nells hit a base force from Derby and disable 20 squads as it moves throughout he desert toward Katherine. A few of these are roaming the wilds and will be hit hard.

So Pac: Still a big blip moving across the area south of Pago Pago toward Tongatapu. A small TF of 2 of the training CLs and two E followed by one AO with escorts is moving down near Noumea to make sure some ships are here to intercept should this be a convoy to OZ.

China: At Chungking 3 more P-40 are damaged on the ground. I forgot to mention that Kunming was taken almost entirely intact, with 1 HI point damaged. This will be a great source of supply for the mountain region and extra HI as long as fuel gets up here from Burma.
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[PaxMondo]

Yes, FOW is present in those numbers.  The only number I beleive not subject to FOW is your total current score ....

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Yes, FOW is present in those numbers.  The only number I beleive not subject to FOW is your total current score ....

I guess they should be but I wonder which is closer to the truth. In this battle I was in a hurry and escaped through it. I have to remember to not do that when it's a big air fight I need good numbers on. After that I wasn't sure whether to launch another port strike or not.

[Historiker]

It's been nearly a month since the rail/road route through China has been secured. I've been sending all subsequent fuel shipment to Singapore and some oil as well just to see if it would begin to draw north. So far it continues to build in Singapore.

Recently I've tried several tactics to get it to move up. Firstly I stopped sending fuel to Hong Kong and began one CS convoy pulling it out. Then I began two more in Shanghai. After this I noticed Oil and then fuel going down in Port Arthur, in spite of having it set to keep both.

I've also started several fuel CS convoys from Fusan to Fukuoka and moved the Combined Fleet HQ there. Still, Singapore continues to hold onto fuel, oil and resources.

What should I try next? Or is it just a waiting game, and how long might it take to begin to draw? Here is a pic with some info from Singapore.

Ah! I finally find something how it works - or doesn't [:)]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Yes, FOW is present in those numbers.  The only number I beleive not subject to FOW is your total current score ....

I guess they should be but I wonder which is closer to the truth. In this battle I was in a hurry and escaped through it. I have to remember to not do that when it's a big air fight I need good numbers on. After that I wasn't sure whether to launch another port strike or not.

I always understood that the number in the destroyed planes field are not FOW-influenced.

[obvert]

[font="Times New Roman"]30 May 1942[/font]
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subs: Pollack again takes two shots at sub chasers near Ominato, with one dud. None of the 4 CHa can get an attack on the sub. Also, the last time these were in port I changed a few captains, and all are acceptable if not good, and the TF leader has good naval and 55 aggressiveness. Not great, but not terrible either.

Haddock duds on an xAK near Torishima.

West Australia: A 30 Kate strike at 8 hexes with a preceding sweep was ordered, but the Mini-KB doesn't send planes due to clouds over Perth. The Junyo and Suzuya with a good sized escort will head to Singapore to fix up the torpedo damage suffered a week ago. The rest will move to Carnarvon to replenish.

The Broome base force is hit today and 24 squads are disabled in the far reaches of the desert between Derby and Katherine. This is much easier than chasing these down with SNLFs.

So Pac: The blip still going, now veering toward NZ. Just south of Tongatapu.

China: At Chungking 1 Warhawk is destroyed and two damaged today on the ground.
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PI: The garrison unit destined for Manila has been bought out and is loading for transport. I will start prepping the Brigade for Diego now. I know it might be seen by the Allies in sigint, but it would be suicide to go there without at least a half-prepped force.

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[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

It's been nearly a month since the rail/road route through China has been secured. I've been sending all subsequent fuel shipment to Singapore and some oil as well just to see if it would begin to draw north. So far it continues to build in Singapore.

Recently I've tried several tactics to get it to move up. Firstly I stopped sending fuel to Hong Kong and began one CS convoy pulling it out. Then I began two more in Shanghai. After this I noticed Oil and then fuel going down in Port Arthur, in spite of having it set to keep both.

I've also started several fuel CS convoys from Fusan to Fukuoka and moved the Combined Fleet HQ there. Still, Singapore continues to hold onto fuel, oil and resources.

What should I try next? Or is it just a waiting game, and how long might it take to begin to draw? Here is a pic with some info from Singapore.

Ah! I finally find something how it works - or doesn't [:)]

I know I've read somewhere that is has and does work, I just want to know what to do to force the situation so I don't waste time, fuel and ships hauling this stuff in the meantime.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Historiker

It's been nearly a month since the rail/road route through China has been secured. I've been sending all subsequent fuel shipment to Singapore and some oil as well just to see if it would begin to draw north. So far it continues to build in Singapore.

Recently I've tried several tactics to get it to move up. Firstly I stopped sending fuel to Hong Kong and began one CS convoy pulling it out. Then I began two more in Shanghai. After this I noticed Oil and then fuel going down in Port Arthur, in spite of having it set to keep both.

I've also started several fuel CS convoys from Fusan to Fukuoka and moved the Combined Fleet HQ there. Still, Singapore continues to hold onto fuel, oil and resources.

What should I try next? Or is it just a waiting game, and how long might it take to begin to draw? Here is a pic with some info from Singapore.

Ah! I finally find something how it works - or doesn't [:)]

I know I've read somewhere that is has and does work, I just want to know what to do to force the situation so I don't waste time, fuel and ships hauling this stuff in the meantime.

So do I

Does the pulling of oil out of Burma into Siam and Malaya work? I've read it somewhere and planned to turn off the refinereies in Burma...