And again - Vicberg (Axis) vs. Richard wg335910 (Sov)

[vicberg]

4th game with another coming. Think I'm addicted? Naaa.

Turn 3.

Did standard main pockets first turn. Second turn found a couple of gaps and isolated Southern Soviet army from swamps to Romania. 3rd turn I'm encountering a new strategy. Completely run away. At this point, I have no idea if it's a good strategy to setup deeper for a good defense.

There's was nothing in front of AGN, AGS, AGC.

Here's the north.

[vicberg]

Center

[vicberg]

Southern (North front)

[vicberg]

Southern (South Front)

[henri51]

deleted

[CheerfullyInsane]

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Completely run away. At this point, I have no idea if it's a good strategy to setup deeper for a good defense.

It's not. While the Russians need to dig-in further back, leaving the front-line empty will only mean they won't get the time. No enemy means the panzers will arrive that much more quickly.
Granted, no front will hold the panzers the first 5-8 turns, but there has to be something on the front, if only to supply ZOCs to slow the Germans down.
Something, anything. A skirmish-line of unready infantry will still cost the Axis time.

[AFV]

I agree with Insane. It takes more skill and planning to offer up a skirmish line, with strong (ish) points, taking advantage of terrain and rivers, making the Axis pay additional MP, making the Axis take attrition casualties (very important), and to not let large amounts of units get surrounded, than to just move everything eastward. If you have the skill to do it, it is well worth the effort. Perhaps your opponent cannot? So, while this defense is superior to letting mass units get surrounded, its still not very good.

In fact, doing that- setting up a defense as I described, is why I really enjoy playing the Soviet (yes, even the first 17 turns). This defense does not look fun at all. I am going to follow this AAR with interest to see if what I think will happen, happens.

Interesting, you have two AARs going and I think both of them you have a good chance of getting a major victory.

[vicberg]

Turn 4

You are probably right. We'll see. I don't mull or chain a whole lot, so I'm not sure major victory is achievable.

Here's AGN. Waiting for the infantry, so I send PZG4 north where his troops aren't.

[vicberg]

AGC

He's setting up north to south along the minor rivers. I didn't take a screenshot, but he has troops running along these river lines to the south.

I took land, walked into Smolensk, blew a small hole beyond Smolensk. I didn't take a screen shot, but a panzer corp from PZG2 walked into Gomel and past the rivers there without opposition. The 4th and the 9th Army move closer to the front.

[vicberg]

AGS

He's committing to the south. He has the rivers along the Denpr heavily defended all the way down to Zaporozhye. I could have pushed accross the Denpr with Panzers, but instead took Nikoleav, Krivoi Rog and Kirovograd and am awaiting the 17th and 6th armies to make a strong push.

[CheerfullyInsane]

Small tip: If you don't intend to cross the Dnepr with the panzers, there's very little reason to leave them in enemy ZOC.
That only adds attrition-casualties and increases fatigue. You've got airplanes for recon.

[Flaviusx]

If you leave those hexes empty, I personally would cross the Dnepr as the Soviet and occupy the choice ones with bad terrain. Rough terrain in some respects is better than clear behind a major river, ditto marsh. A good Soviet defense of the Dnepr actually starts west of it and incorporates the terrain features. The real issue here is that the German foot is lagging badly behind the armor, and needs to be brought up forwards ASAP to relieve them.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: AFV

I agree with Insane. It takes more skill and planning to offer up a skirmish line, with strong (ish) points, taking advantage of terrain and rivers, making the Axis pay additional MP, making the Axis take attrition casualties (very important), and to not let large amounts of units get surrounded, than to just move everything eastward. If you have the skill to do it, it is well worth the effort. Perhaps your opponent cannot? So, while this defense is superior to letting mass units get surrounded, its still not very good.

In fact, doing that- setting up a defense as I described, is why I really enjoy playing the Soviet (yes, even the first 17 turns). This defense does not look fun at all. I am going to follow this AAR with interest to see if what I think will happen, happens.

Interesting, you have two AARs going and I think both of them you have a good chance of getting a major victory.

Picketing is better than running, although at some point you may not have enough units to picket. One unit every 3 hexes is sufficient for this, with the main line of resistance several hexes back. The picketing units should be adjacent to the enemy if at all possible, and the picketing units should be the most expendable ones.

[CheerfullyInsane]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If you leave those hexes empty, I personally would cross the Dnepr as the Soviet and occupy the choice ones with bad terrain. Rough terrain in some respects is better than clear behind a major river, ditto marsh.

Fair point. Hadn't considered that. [&o]

[randallw]

Is the attrition trade-off actually favor the Soviets? Experience levels are supposed to factor in the attrition rate, so isn't the Soviet side suffering a higher loss rate?

[CheerfullyInsane]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Is the attrition trade-off actually favor the Soviets? Experience levels are supposed to factor in the attrition rate, so isn't the Soviet side suffering a higher loss rate?

Not sure. I'm not that familiar with the inner workings of the system.
However, even if I do suffer higher losses, I'll gladly trade suffer higher attrition as long as it's my infantry against his panzers. The Russians can afford the losses in the long run.
Besides, hitting panzers that are supposed to move forward with fatigue and disruptions......It all helps.

[vicberg]

I didn't think about attrition. I was thinking about conserving MPs for the push. I'm really not thrilled with the Armor push accross the southern Denpr anymore at least not before turn 9 or 10. Takes too long to get the rails up there and I'm not a fan of mulling. For this game, I'm probably going to push away because I have nothing in front of panzers around Gomel, small forces in front of PZG3 south of Smolensk. It may be possible to gain some gain serious territory and cities if I make a strong push or send PZG2 north to link up with it other corp and make a push for Moscow and capture some cities along the way.