Will there be A-Bombs?

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:08 pm

Will they be available?

If so i like to see the following effects when a base or city is hit:

-production damage
-full effects on troops located at the base
-damage to airports and Aircraft
-Base/Supply damage
-longtime effects of radioactive enviroment

and so on.

Would be nice to render bases completely inhabitable, if they can be a threat.

Yamamoto · Post by **Yamamoto** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:14 pm

Originally posted by Odin
Will they be available?

If so i like to see the following effects when a base or city is hit:

-production damage
-full effects on troops located at the base
-damage to airports and Aircraft
-Base/Supply damage
-longtime effects of radioactive enviroment

and so on.

Would be nice to render bases completely inhabitable, if they can be a threat.

...and a small chance to awaken Godzilla.

Yamamoto

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:34 am

Hehehe!!!:D

Pawlock · Post by **Pawlock** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:55 pm

Originally posted by Odin
Will they be available?

If so i like to see the following effects when a base or city is hit:

-production damage
-full effects on troops located at the base
-damage to airports and Aircraft
-Base/Supply damage
-longtime effects of radioactive enviroment

and so on.

Would be nice to render bases completely inhabitable, if they can be a threat.

Well it's interesting. Simple answer I would think, for history/realism yes, but for gameplay no.

As soon as A bomb comes into play, games over full stop.

Slick91 · Post by **Slick91** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:39 pm

Originally posted by Pawlock
Well it's interesting. Simple answer I would think, for history/realism yes, but for gameplay no.

As soon as A bomb comes into play, games over full stop.

That's the way the old board game ended. If the Allies could hold out until August 1945, and the Japanese didn't control x amount of resources, then the game ended in a Allied victory due to the introduction of the A-Bomb.

derwho · Post by **derwho** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:06 pm

I'd like to be able to fight to the death and force my worthy USN opponent to commence operation Olympic. The US didn't have many A-bombs, I beleive the two dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ware the only ones available and more ware coming up only in 1946?

Anyways, I feel that if the IJN player could repel any landing on mainland Japan (aka Olympic) he should be credited with a draw or even a minor victory as historically US would have sued for peace after such a defeat.

Also - when the war ended in Europe 1945, the allied public opinion would have been against a protracted war in the pacific, thus the longer Japan can hold against the US after the fall of Germany, the more VP's Japan should get.

Feel free to comment.

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:30 am

and a small chance to awaken Godzilla.

Hardly fair to both nuke Japan then unleash a 400 foot tall Imperviosaurus on Tokyo. Maybe instead it could be a random monster selection. If the Jpns are lucky, the nukes awaken the Rodan, and they become such a nuisance in Japanese airspace that no further strategic bombing is allowed. Or maybe they get the Monster Island twins and Mothera. So the US is forced to the negotiating table or finds Saipan and Guam webbed-in.

The US didn't have many A-bombs, I beleive the two dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ware the only ones available and more ware coming up only in 1946?

There was one other nuke ready. Four altogether (the Los Alamos device, the two used, and a fourth in assembly). I think the reference is in either "Downfall" or "Tenno-zan." It would not have been particularly difficult to make more, however. Just expensive.

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:36 am

Anyways, I feel that if the IJN player could repel any landing on mainland Japan (aka Olympic) he should be credited with a draw or even a minor victory as historically US would have sued for peace after such a defeat.

No, the US would simply have declared a protracted siege or mfd more nukes. From what I've read, the prevailing US public sentiment after Germany surrendered was "Two Down, One to Go."

U2 · Post by U2 » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:36 am

Originally posted by mdiehl
"Downfall"

Hi

A very good book BTW. Please read it for info about the last months of the Japanese empire. It was one of my christmas gifts:D Oh the opening chapter of the book is the most brutal accounts of the US fire bombing of Tokyo I've ever read.

Dan

CapAndGown · Post by **CapAndGown** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 7:58 am

Yeah, a Godzilla cheat code wode be great!! Just image the combat animation for that. And the combat report:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/08/45

Weather: Overcast

Monster attack on Tokyo at 29,34

Monsters
Godzilla x 1

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 3
A6M2 Zero x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe x 3 destroyed
A6M2-N Rufe x 15 damaged
A6M2 Zero x 5 damaged

Monster losses
none

Japanese Ships
AV Kamikawa Maru, hit by fire breathing monster, is sunk
CL Agano, stepped on by monster, is sunk
AV Sanyo Maru, monster tail swipes ship, is sunk
CL Naka, hit by fire breathing monster, is sunk
DD Isokaze, tossed by monster onto Mount Fuji, is permanently beached
DD Kiyonami, eaten by monster, is digested

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 6,393,555
Guns lost 12,560
Vehicles lost 23,659
Buildings flattened 87
Trains sent tumbling down embankments 5
Billboards knocked over 34

Port hits 549
Port fuel hits 234
Port supply hits 29
Airbase hits hard to tell since they are all gone

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why should RTS people have all the fun

Segrat · Post by **Segrat** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:55 pm

Another thought on the topic of weapons of mass distruction. The japanese were studying chemical and bio weapons. At some point they could have decided to try these out.

Yamamoto · Post by **Yamamoto** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:52 am

Originally posted by mdiehl
From what I've read, the prevailing US public sentiment after Germany surrendered was "Two Down, One to Go."

When American GIs from the European theater heard they were going to be shipped to the Pacif there was a near revolt. The feeling they had was, "We did our job. They (soldiers assigned to the Pacific) should do their's"

Yamamoto

CynicAl · Post by **CynicAl** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:51 pm

Originally posted by Segrat
Another thought on the topic of weapons of mass distruction. The japanese were studying chemical and bio weapons. At some point they could have decided to try these out.

Not "could have." Did.

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:07 am

When American GIs from the European theater heard they were going to be shipped to the Pacif there was a near revolt. The feeling they had was, "We did our job. They (soldiers assigned to the Pacific) should do their's"

The chief complaint was not that they were being sent to the PTO. The complaints were:

1. That many would be redeployed to the PTO without a rotation home for leave.

2. That there was a seniority system for rotation/mustering out, in which some personnel would be allowed to go home where others would not. Since the system was applied at the individual rather than unit level, lots of people knew folks who were mysteriously "privileged." The mere existence of such a system degraded morale, because such things will always be the subject of speculation re favoritism, ways to game the rules and so forth. Since it was applied at the individual level, the result was that crack, experienced divisions would have lost their most veteran personnel, leaving you with a division full of pissed off rookies.

Had it come to the need to deploy to the PTO, the rotation system would have been eliminated. Most of the ETO combat personnel would have been granted a leave. Most of the logistical and command personnel would have gone straight to the Pacific. The problem would have been solved by November 1945.

TIMJOT · Post by **TIMJOT** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:34 am

Originally posted by mdiehl

Had it come to the need to deploy to the PTO, the rotation system would have been eliminated. Most of the ETO combat personnel would have been granted a leave. Most of the logistical and command personnel would have gone straight to the Pacific. The problem would have been solved by November 1945.

How do know this with such certainty?

herbieh · Post by **herbieh** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:14 am

Cap and gown, that combat report was the funniest thing Ive read in years.

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:04 am

How do know this with such certainty?

Because the point system for mustering out was suspended (IIRC) in July '45, and only started up again in late August. I'll see if I can find a web reference.

Feinder · Post by **Feinder** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:28 am

Fighting beyond the A-bomb...

Sure you could put an option that says you could fight to last regiment, it doesn't hurt anything, it's just a game. But saying that historically, the American people would have sued for peace because of losses in Operation Olympic is ludicrous (and more than a little insulting to generation of Americans in the 40s). If anything losses in Olympic, would have just made them that much more angry and determined. If the Japanese still continued to fight, I can tell you the US would likely have excersized the option of isolating the parts fo Japan still held by Imperial troops, and simply bombed/nuked them until they surrendered or were all dead.

I understand the whole point of the game is "what would you do" under certain historical constraints. However the, "But I want to fight on, even if the US nukes every last one of my cities! I'll fight to the last regiment!" mentality is completely beyond the possability of any historical outcome.

The wasteland thad Japan had already become from the B-29s was WHY they surrendered in the first place. The damage of the nukes of Hiroshima a Nagasaki paled to the collective damage that Japan had already sustained by the firebombing raids. The use of nuclear weapons was merely to demonstrate that things were just going to get exponentially worse. The Japanese didn't know that there was "only" one bomb remaining (which I didn't know either, and find very interesting). The nukes demonstrated that we could flatten ANY city we wanted to, when we wanted to. The point of the A-bombs was force Japan into realizing that continued resistance was simply a waste of life. (It was also to "encourage" the Japanese to surrender before the Russians got into the war because we didn't want to have "share" Asian spoils, and to demonstrate to the Russians that what we were capable of. But I won't get into that.)

Despite that whole Samuri mentality, even the Emporer, his advisors, and the Japanese military could see that they would simply be throwing away the lives of their FAMILIES if they continued to fight. And for what? Honor? What honor is there if everyone who would say you died honorably, is DEAD? It's no good be the Emporer of a country where there's no one to worship you.

This post is kind of disorganized, but I guess I got my nose out joint when I read that "Americans would sue for peace over losses in Olympic."

-F-

mdiehl · Post by **mdiehl** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:35 am

Pretty much any Japanese option after August 1945 other than surrender leads to something like the "Black Knight" scene in the Monthy Pythin and the Holy Grail.

The US would have continued the war. I also suspect that Olympic would never have happened at all, so this business of "fight to the last regiment" is probably a pipe dream. The US could have besieged Japan for 6 months, a year, two years... it would have made little difference with respect to *American* casualties. If, after a prolonged siege and bombing campaign (concomitaant starvation, lack of industry to produce medicines or even clothing, and subsequent catastrophic population decline), the Japanese Army could find a person healthy enough to shoulder a rifle, that person could deliver the surrender documents.

But it would not have gotten that far. As soon as the militarists realized that (1) the war was lost, and (2) there was not even going to be (much of ) an opportunity to take one enemy with you for glory, the emperor and all that chicken___t, the only option remaining was surrender.

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:09 am

Originally posted by Feinder
Fighting beyond the A-bomb...

Sure you could put an option that says you could fight to last regiment, it doesn't hurt anything, it's just a game. But saying that historically, the American people would have sued for peace because of losses in Operation Olympic is ludicrous (and more than a little insulting to generation of Americans in the 40s).

This is why I think a game based solely over victory/defeat will be quickly shelved by players since Japan has no real chance in winning.

Japan does have a chance in doing better then historic Japan. It is a very good possibility that Japan can delay the American attack by up to one year. The main reason that the US started their attack in late 1942 was the loss of the IJN Carrier force at Midway. The chance of a Midway-like battle (such a one sided action early in the war) is very improbable (as USN strategins discovered in tests post-war).

Japan could very possibly delay the US advances on Japan long enough that the war could go into 1946 (due to the fact that the USAAC does not manage to capture bases within range of Japan until 1945). Wether or not this would result in an invasion of Japan would be up to the player(s).

However, the end result would be the same, Japan gets defeated. However, I would consider the game lasting until 1946 to be a Total Victory for the Japanese Player.

Will there be A-Bombs?

Will there be A-Bombs?

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Godzilla