Loading troops weirdness

[DKW]

1108r9
3 issues here, sorry for not breaking it into 3 separate bug reports.

Issue 1:
While testing something, I repeatedly started Guadalcanal and set south pacific HQ to strat move. Sometimes it would be 2 turns to pack, sometimes it would be 1, is this random or a bug? I'm leaning towards random.

Issue 2:
Start Guadalcanal
Set South Pacific HQ to strat move
Form Trans TF using AK Ara
Select Load Troops
Select South Pacific such that it says LOADING UNIT
Verify Load
Accept Load
Back
Outcome: Usually 0 Ops are used, sometimes (rarely) 72 Ops are used. In both cases 72 are loaded and it says Loading troops - pending.
Is Ops used or not a case of randomness too? It's either random, or I somehow changed my order of operations and can't remember it, because now I can't reproduce it.

If you have in fact used 72 Ops then save it, because it seems to be very rare. I've done it a bunch of times, but I've also repeated these steps 20 times in a row and not used Ops. I have provided a full campaign savegame with all the ships in Hong Kong having used 72 Ops, if you need.

If you have used 72 Ops, then in TF select Adjust Load Troops, if you select done or exit 0 more Ops will be used. If instead you select Reallocate TF Load then 72 more Ops will be used, each and every time you repeat this. You can use up 1000 Ops if you wanted to, and not have changed anything on that reallocation screen or anywhere. Seems a bit unfair to newbs who are just trying to figure out the best way to evacuate HK. Sound like anyone you know?

Issue 3:
Whether or not you have used Ops, from TF screen select Unload Cargo/Troops, then select Cancel Unload Cargo/Troops. The load status will say unloading stopped, the load will be 72, the SP/1 troops will still be on the AK. From TF screen, select Load Troops. Click LOADING UNIT so that it now says Select Unit. You are now in a situation where you cannot select it back to say LOADING UNIT. Wait a few turns and the unit will NOT be loaded, it will still be at 72 loaded and be in status *unloading canceled*. So with this sequence of steps the only way to get that unit loaded on this transport could be to waste 1 turn on actually performing the unloading, then loading again. You might be able to do something if you have other troops and ships, but still.

[witpqs]

I do not know about the first two items, someone else will have to answer.

ORIGINAL: DKW

Issue 3:
Whether or not you have used Ops, from TF screen select Unload Cargo/Troops, then select Cancel Unload Cargo/Troops.

Why are you doing this? You are screwing up the loading process when you do this - don't do it!!

The load status will say unloading stopped, the load will be 72, the SP/1 troops will still be on the AK. From TF screen, select Load Troops. Click LOADING UNIT so that it now says Select Unit. You are now in a situation where you cannot select it back to say LOADING UNIT. Wait a few turns and the unit will NOT be loaded, it will still be at 72 loaded and be in status *unloading canceled*. So with this sequence of steps the only way to get that unit loaded on this transport could be to waste 1 turn on actually performing the unloading, then loading again. You might be able to do something if you have other troops and ships, but still.

After the loading process is screwed up - it is screwed up! You will have to unload whatever is on the ships before you start the loading process over again.

Here is a trick that you might find useful: Just before you start giving the orders to load troops, save the game. Use one of the extra slots available if you don't want to compete with the slot you consider to be the 'main' saved game. If you find that you want to make a change to the way you are loading things, or try a different combination of orders, etc. simply Quit the game and load that save game. That way you can make another try at it.

[Sardaukar]

I think 1. item depends on unit leader either succeeding or failing some attribute die rolls.

[Puhis]

I think it's just random number. Smaller unit packing time is 1 or 2 days, big units (divisions?) 2 or 3 days.

This is one of those silly things in this game. It might take 2 days to get company of men in train, but railroads can transport big bombers without any packing time... [8|]

[DKW]

OK, so issues 1 and 2 being random based on leader roll makes sense, it would fit with why all xAKs at HK used 72 Ops and yet my AK used 72 Ops only twice out of tons and tons of tries.

However, I disagree on issue 3 being something that should cost me 1 turn to fix. It is true, it should not be done, but, as a newb on his first turn who doesn't know any better, I did it. Think of it this way. I am queueing up orders, but we haven't even gotten to the turn phase yet, where the orders are executed. For all I know it's still 3am in the morning. I should be able to change my mind and give new orders before any loading has been started. Really, this orders phase of the game is just an abstraction, plenty of other things don't happen immediately (and some do).

That's why issue 2 is such a problem: I haven't even changed my orders and it still docks me more and more based on a certain UI path followed. You might now see issue 3 in the same way: I'm trying to switch what's loaded, and if I do it through 1 sequence of UI steps it works and another sequence it locks up. Doesn't this make sense to a newb: Load LCU 1, Unload Troops, Load LCU 2 as an alternative to Load LCU 1, Adjust Load, Select LCU 2? And before you say 'well just don't do that,' I'm trying to explore all UI options to find what I can and can't do. Makes sense given that I still haven't found the pilot reserve page, etc.

Don't worry, I have plenty of saves and if I screw up I go back to the last one.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: DKW

OK, so issues 1 and 2 being random based on leader roll makes sense, it would fit with why all xAKs at HK used 72 Ops and yet my AK used 72 Ops only twice out of tons and tons of tries.

However, I disagree on issue 3 being something that should cost me 1 turn to fix. It is true, it should not be done, but, as a newb on his first turn who doesn't know any better, I did it. Think of it this way. I am queueing up orders, but we haven't even gotten to the turn phase yet, where the orders are executed. For all I know it's still 3am in the morning. I should be able to change my mind and give new orders before any loading has been started. Really, this orders phase of the game is just an abstraction, plenty of other things don't happen immediately (and some do).

That's why issue 2 is such a problem: I haven't even changed my orders and it still docks me more and more based on a certain UI path followed. You might now see issue 3 in the same way: I'm trying to switch what's loaded, and if I do it through 1 sequence of UI steps it works and another sequence it locks up. Doesn't this make sense to a newb: Load LCU 1, Unload Troops, Load LCU 2 as an alternative to Load LCU 1, Adjust Load, Select LCU 2? And before you say 'well just don't do that,' I'm trying to explore all UI options to find what I can and can't do. Makes sense given that I still haven't found the pilot reserve page, etc.

Don't worry, I have plenty of saves and if I screw up I go back to the last one.

As to #3, he didn't say it should, he said it does. When you do something like that it screws up the internal sequencing. Should it do it? no. Should a fix be generated? Well, it's all a matter of priorities and the fact that changes are made by a non-Matrix person who does it for fun.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: pompack

ORIGINAL: DKW

OK, so issues 1 and 2 being random based on leader roll makes sense, it would fit with why all xAKs at HK used 72 Ops and yet my AK used 72 Ops only twice out of tons and tons of tries.

However, I disagree on issue 3 being something that should cost me 1 turn to fix. It is true, it should not be done, but, as a newb on his first turn who doesn't know any better, I did it. Think of it this way. I am queueing up orders, but we haven't even gotten to the turn phase yet, where the orders are executed. For all I know it's still 3am in the morning. I should be able to change my mind and give new orders before any loading has been started. Really, this orders phase of the game is just an abstraction, plenty of other things don't happen immediately (and some do).

That's why issue 2 is such a problem: I haven't even changed my orders and it still docks me more and more based on a certain UI path followed. You might now see issue 3 in the same way: I'm trying to switch what's loaded, and if I do it through 1 sequence of UI steps it works and another sequence it locks up. Doesn't this make sense to a newb: Load LCU 1, Unload Troops, Load LCU 2 as an alternative to Load LCU 1, Adjust Load, Select LCU 2? And before you say 'well just don't do that,' I'm trying to explore all UI options to find what I can and can't do. Makes sense given that I still haven't found the pilot reserve page, etc.

Don't worry, I have plenty of saves and if I screw up I go back to the last one.

As to #3, he didn't say it should, he said it does. When you do something like that it screws up the internal sequencing. Should it do it? no. Should a fix be generated? Well, it's all a matter of priorities and the fact that changes are made by a non-Matrix person who does it for fun.

What he said. [8D]

"It would be nice if..." Yes, it would. There are just various limits to what we have in our hands. The more time you gain with it the more you will see that it's real good stuff, little warts (and big warts) and all.

[michaelm75au]

When you click and start loading troops on the TF, a lot of things happen in the background. It is different to say loading supplies where the actual load doesn't happen to the turn runs.

I don't believe that cancelling the load is not just a simple case of 'remove the units from ships and restore ops'. Those background things would need to be reversed which could lead to knock on effects on other things. That is it could create more problems just to change your mind about what to load.

To reverse a load might require a re-design of how troops are loaded (ie don't load a fragment to reserve a ship slot) and possible loss of the 'Verify load' step. This would be a big change to how integrated and relatively user-friendly in info that is today.

[DKW]

Just from having seen how it works, I'd agree that it could be a complex patch to fix #3 like that with no side effects. For #2, I was thinking of something you do when programming Windows dialog boxes, can't remember the term. Upon entering, store state, upon exiting, compare state. If stateEnter == stateExit then OpsCost += 0; else OpsCost += normal;//lol, += 0

Edit: I was never suggesting change how the troop fragments are loaded to reserve a ship slot - I'd consider that a side effect too. However, a smaller change could be sufficient. If you follow the steps exactly you'll see the issue isn't that I can't change my mind, it's that I get stuck at a certain point.
State at time of lock up:
TF has LCU fragment onboard
TF has stopped loading/unloading (and has valid Load Troops button)
TF has 1 ship, but 0 units selected to load (loading of LCU has been stopped by clicking LOADING UNIT)
Try to load the LCU that is already onboard gives the error message: NOT ALLOWED selected units may not exceed the number of transports
Possible suggestion: reuse the fragment, don't create a new one.

[michaelm75au]

Not a pure Windows program. The program uses its own engine for screen handling.

[DKW]

Technique would be the same though.

[jmalter]

i'm not in favor of altering the program to make it fool-proof, or to allow free undo of orders. as michaelm points out, making the changes to allow a free pass can likely have unintended consequences, i think he's politely saying that "the cure might be worse than the disease."

lord knows, i've screwed up enough PhibTF load-outs to earn gold clusters to my snafu medal, & 72 ops points is a small price to pay.

[Dan Nichols]

Saving a series of times while doing complicated loading is useful.

[jmalter]

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols
Saving a series of times while doing complicated loading is useful.

and i'm not at all averse to realizing that "i've buggered myself completely here", and exiting to reload the latest save!

[DKW]

I have found another "Stupid Things Only Newbs Do" with loading troops that produce 2 bugs:
I have a transport that is loaded 1838/1750 (not sure if a bug, exploit, or normal)
I found an exploit that will not be mentioned on the forums, due to the PBEM nature of the game.

I would encourage you to take a look at this, so please PM me for details and savegame(s). Or, if this patching by MichaelM is just on a volunteer basis and he doesn't want to do it, then I volunteer myself. I'm a recent, unemployed CS graduate, so if you give me read access to the repo I'll give you a patch. It would give me something to do and look good on my resume. But I expect this to be "shot down" as well (pun intended).

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

When you click and start loading troops on the TF, a lot of things happen in the background. It is different to say loading supplies where the actual load doesn't happen to the turn runs.

I don't believe that cancelling the load is not just a simple case of 'remove the units from ships and restore ops'. Those background things would need to be reversed which could lead to knock on effects on other things. That is it could create more problems just to change your mind about what to load.

To reverse a load might require a re-design of how troops are loaded (ie don't load a fragment to reserve a ship slot) and possible loss of the 'Verify load' step. This would be a big change to how integrated and relatively user-friendly in info that is today.

I would say that this "bug" is actually a "feature" that more represents reality.

IRL, not all load-outs went smoothly. It was a complicated procedure to coordinate and organize a load-out. Troops getting onto the wrong ship or a ship taken out of the fleet because of mechanical issues. There were many issues which could delay the expected load out completion time.

I would consider this game "glitch" as a realistic factor that would normally cause a change of plans.

[Charbroiled]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

When you click and start loading troops on the TF, a lot of things happen in the background. It is different to say loading supplies where the actual load doesn't happen to the turn runs.

I don't believe that cancelling the load is not just a simple case of 'remove the units from ships and restore ops'. Those background things would need to be reversed which could lead to knock on effects on other things. That is it could create more problems just to change your mind about what to load.

To reverse a load might require a re-design of how troops are loaded (ie don't load a fragment to reserve a ship slot) and possible loss of the 'Verify load' step. This would be a big change to how integrated and relatively user-friendly in info that is today.

I would say that this "bug" is actually a "feature" that more represents reality.

IRL, not all load-outs went smoothly. It was a complicated procedure to coordinate and organize a load-out. Troops getting onto the wrong ship or a ship taken out of the fleet because of mechanical issues. There were many issues which could delay the expected load out completion time.

I would consider this game "glitch" as a realistic factor that would normally cause a change of plans. Something goes wrong and it takes time to fix it.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: DKW

I have found another "Stupid Things Only Newbs Do" with loading troops that produce 2 bugs:
I have a transport that is loaded 1838/1750 (not sure if a bug, exploit, or normal)
I found an exploit that will not be mentioned on the forums, due to the PBEM nature of the game.

I would encourage you to take a look at this, so please PM me for details and savegame(s). Or, if this patching by MichaelM is just on a volunteer basis and he doesn't want to do it, then I volunteer myself. I'm a recent, unemployed CS graduate, so if you give me read access to the repo I'll give you a patch. It would give me something to do and look good on my resume. But I expect this to be "shot down" as well (pun intended).

You can send the details and save to michaelm75 @ hotmail.com

[Uncivil Engineer]

Speaking of loading weirdness - how about unloading? In my PBEM game I had some troops loaded in a transport TF and while enroute decided to change the destination to an enemy port (forgetting that they were not loaded for an amphib landing). Fortunately, the enemy base was undefended. They unloaded still in strategic mode, which I changed to combat, and after unpacking they captured the base. Is this a glitch? I expected to see the TF depart the enemy base without unloading.