Stacking penalties other the supplies?

[Andav]

So the other day 23-Mar-42, my dastardly PBEM opponent witpqs and I had a battle in hex 83,52. I suffered greatly while my opponent did not. I am trying to understand what I did wrong. This is DBBs with the stacking limits all over the map. The stacking limit for this hex is 55,000. It is forest. Here is the combat report snippet.

Ground combat at 83,52 (near Changsha)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 103543 troops, 879 guns, 56 vehicles, Assault Value = 3011

Defending force 42305 troops, 151 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1196

Japanese adjusted assault: 1453

Allied adjusted defense: 1027

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
12823 casualties reported
Squads: 232 destroyed, 389 disabled
Non Combat: 33 destroyed, 78 disabled
Engineers: 20 destroyed, 51 disabled
Guns lost 69 (22 destroyed, 47 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1310 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 223 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled


Assaulting units:
110th Division
17th Ind.Mixed Brigade
13th Division
6th Division
15th Ind.Mixed Brigade
35th Division
40th Division
13th Ind.Mixed Brigade
57th Infantry Brigade
37th Division
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Mortar Battalion
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion

Defending units:
73rd Chinese Corps
53rd Chinese Corps
37th Chinese Corps
87th Chinese Corps

I am VERY fortunate to have an excellent partner who is willing to talk about things which seem funny to us (or me specifically). The stacking limit for the hex is 55,000. As you can see, my opponent had placed a strong blocking force in the hex. I had several units in the hex blocking his blocking force while I marshaled my troops for an attack. My plan was to march my attacking troops to the adjacent hex. Once in the adjacent hex, I set them all to follow one unit so they all arrive on the same day to minimize the supply penalty for over stacking. All the troops arrived in good order and were supplied (see below). I was over stacked about 88%.

I guess my question is: In addition to supply penalties for over stacking, are there casualty penalties as well? This seems really out of balance considering I had a 1 to 1 and no negative modifiers. My opponent benefitted from terrain but gets dinged for experience.

I started digging a bit and discussing with witpqs. He suggested over stacking, supply and fatigue combined with dug in troops in the forest on his side. I was pretty carful to check my supply levels before the attack since I knew I was waaaaaaaay over stacked. Thank goodness for Tracker. If you do not use this tool, you really are missing out. It is excellent. Below is a list of the units and their supply levels for the days leading up to the battle and the day after. I sent all this to witpqs already so there are no worries posting this information.

As you can see, on the day they arrived in the hex, supply requirements went waaaaaaaay up. I had two HQs supporting this operation which I hoped would feed supplies to the hex. One was a 1 hex radius HQ in the adjacent hex. The other was China command in Wuchang. There were a lot of supplies in Wuchang. You can see it drawing down on the day of the attack. The troopers making the attack were not the cream of the cream but they were not slackers either.

I am perfectly fine thinking I was the victim of bad dice rolls and such. I just wanted to make sure I was not missing something in the stacking penalties. With no negative modifiers in the combat report, I just think it is odd I was beaten so badly. I am not sure what else to attribute the losses. If there are penalties in addition to supply consumption for over stacking then I am not sure how I am suppose to move any stack from a hex which is near the stacking limit.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Below are the units involved from the Japanese side.

Wa

[witpqs]

Here are screen shots of the Chinese units at the end of the turn before the combat. I didn't pull the Tracker data 'cause I'm not sure it matters for this side (they're not over stacked).

[Andav]

Now I really want to cry ... Those guys did THAT to me!?!?!?!

[:D]

Wa

[Alfred]

This is not really a bug issue. You are much more likely to get a better response if posted in the mod sub-forum which the relevant people are more likely to monitor and respond.

In any case you should lokk at this thread.

tm.asp?m=2915927&mpage=1&key=stacking%2Climits

In particular you should note posts #16 and #36 which outline the additional adverse consequences attendant with over stacking. These adverse effectsd are also subject to die rolls which can accentuate the consequences.

Note also that also that the combat report does not always record all negative moldifiers. For example you can have a disruption level which fails to reach a threshold level to be noted on the combat report but the disruption nonetheless still reduces your adjusted assault value.

It is clear from the combat report that the Chinese forces suffered absolutely no adverse results from overstacking but Japan was greatly overstacked. An example of the consequences of overstacking is that for each 10% level over the stacking limit, supply consumption shoots up by 20%. Thus a 88% overstacking leads to approximately a 180% supply consumption. That alone would have led to a substantial reduction in adjusted assault value.

Basically the combat resulted in a WAD outcome. With stacking limits the defender can get a significant bonus if the attacker insists on fighting on ground well chosen by the defender. Stacking limits are designed to defang the unrealistic land death stars employed by the RTS crowd. Attackers must maneouver to discover where the enemy weak points are.

Alfred

[witpqs]

Thanks, Alfred!

That material was known to us and we discussed it off line. The point of the posting is really just to confirm that those things are all that's involved or if maybe on the other hand there is some direct modifier-penalty (beyond the secondary effects rendered through supply, fatigue, etc.).

Go easy on the part about Andav's troops maneuvering to find my forces weak areas. He's had too many good ideas in our game already! [:D]

BTW, I think you mean post #38. Post #36 is "Beaudy IS John's pick up line." Good info, but we don't want to repeat that in too many places lest the fairer sex catch wise and we disadvantage John. [:D]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Andav


Now I really want to cry ... Those guys did THAT to me!?!?!?!

[:D]

Wa

Chuck Norris served as an 'Adviser' ([;)]) during the battle.

[Alfred]

Correct witpqs! A typo, post #38 was meant.[:)]

The other option would be to directly PM Andrew Brown. With his limited time I doubt he spends much time monitoring the tech sub forum but bumping up the thread I gave might catch his eye more readily. Also this is the sort of feedback which I think JWE would greatly appreciate over at the mod sub-forum.

Alfred

[Andav]

Alfred,

Thanks for the response. I debated if this was a Tech Support or War Room post or just a general forum post. I guess I guessed wrong.

I am not at all unhappy with the assault values. I achieved a 1 to 1 with 1453 adjusted assault. If you look at the disruption levels from the tracker screenshots, you will see disruption and fatigue levels are pretty normal for the day after an attack. Supply consumption is also very well documented for each turn. It pretty much tripled on the day the additional units moved into the hex. I understand this is a snapshot in time and depending on order of operations it might not ne representative of how much supply they had for the attack. I would think if they were short of supply at the time of the attack it would be noted.

Again, the adjusted assault value is not really the issue. My question is more along the lines of: Are there additional penalties to combat in over stacked hexes?

I think the post is 38 not 36. Being married alomst 23 years, pickup lines are not really something I need! [:D]

Wa

[JWE]

PM sent to you and your PBEM partner.