sorry multiplayer in this game is busted

[vonpaul]

Italians fully stack every hex around Tobruk for over 6 months and do nothing with the troops (so Germans have to land in Tripoli and march). When Germans actually reach the front lines and start pushing the allies back to the Allies towards Alexandra they just invade and capture tobruk directly (17 hexes behind front lines) God knows if the Italians ever actually tried supplying their own troops as they always seem to be worth 1 point.

Then to top it off Germany declares war on USSR in 16 May when half their panzers and air force are still deploying to the Russian Front.

This isn't what I signed up for.

[doomtrader]

vonpaul,
could you please explain it a little bit more?
Who is playing who for start?

[gwgardner]

Yeah, are humans controlling both the Italians, Germans, and British? Just sounds like some bad play, not that multiplayer is broken. If one of those powers is played by the AI, then look at the reports to see how or if shipping was interdicted on all sides, etc.

[JLPOWELL]

Basically I agree with Gary, but there are some design considerations here as well Particularly in north africa. Primary is the total lack of control over events (and of course the events themselves are completely off the chart. I like poker but the ToF events are poker with many changing unknown wild cards. They introduce a luck element which is pretty extreme. PARTICULARLY if they are assigned randomly as in PBEM.

The main problem with invasions just about ALWAYS get thru even when enemy has naval superiority. (I had a nearly full strength inf division killed by a GE division landing out of in Alexandria with 4 CV UK CV and lots of ships in the sea zone plus 3 ftrs near (About as likely as driving a Toyota Camry across the Qattara depression ... oops a 200 meter vertical escarpment better shift to low gear) Even an unopposed landing is tricky, an opposed landing VERY dangerous with significant advantage to defenders, with enemy sea superiority SUICIDE. Not So in ToF treats this more like getting off a bus across gutter.

A bone to pick is the map for North Africa. No invasion beaches along the coast. (I have driven much of the coast and it is for all practical purposes one long invasion beach. Add to that the complete non representation of the Qattara Depression (tanks and units just drive right thru this in ToF. I have been there as well [:D]

For more North Africa fun how about the 'event' which materializes a 3rd level full strength panzer corps and calls it DAK sure the most powerful unit in the game by far just appears in Africa and of course you can just drive it thru the Qattara Depression(extremely strong even when out of supply although supply thru the Qattara depression hexes is no big deal LOL)


>> From Wikipedia (pretty accurate I can say from personal observation)
The depression has the form of a teardrop with the point of the drop facing east and the broad deep area facing the south west. The northern side of the depression is characterised by steep escarpments up to 280 meters high, marking the edge of the adjacent El Diffa plateau. To the south the depression slopes gently up to the Great Sand Sea.
Within the Depression there are salt marshes, under the northwestern and northern escarpment edges, and extensive dry lakes (dry lake beds) that flood occasionally. The marshes occupy approximately 300 square kilometres (120 sq mi), although wind blown sands are encroaching in some areas. About a quarter of the region is occupied by dry lakes composed of hard crust and sticky mud, and occasionally filled with water.
The depression was formed by salt weathering and wind erosion working together. First the salts crumble the depression floor and then the wind blows away the resulting sands.[4]
Its a joke to see the two fortfied hexes east of El Alamein with a completely open flank to the south[:-] NO ONE was going to flank those positions (was Rommel just to stupid to drive around them???)

[johanssb]

VonPaul is playing the Germans with all Axis allies being controlled by the AI. I am playing the U.K. and the U.S.A., with all others controlled by the AI. It basically means that you have to put up with some less than stellar AI play by your allies. The way I looked at it though, is that in reality, when fighting a war with allies, you don't have control of what your allies will do, so you have to work around their behavior. Case in point, I believe that he had quite an easy time with France as they don't defend very well, and he was able to catch and eliminate a number of my B.E.F. corps on French soil because of it. Also, the French navy was completely useless to me. The early collapse of France also handed me a -200 PP penalty which was quite a shock and took me a long time to recover from, especially since his subs were running rampant at the time.

I did find the game quite interesting though, and VonPaul was kicking my butt on most fronts except for the Italian Navy. The AI doesn't do a great job at preserving the Italian Navy. His land-based air was making life for my navy quite miserable, such that I couldn't venture too close to where he had any air assets.

The amph landing in the Med was a gamble on my part. I wanted to hit his supply lines, and I gambled that the Italians were holding Tobruk, as the DAK and some other German units were pushing towards Alexandria, and the U.K. has nothing that can stop the DAK unless you can put them out of supply somehow. He had already taken Malta from me.

Maybe allowing units to unload in ports that are already surrounded by units would help. Not sure if this is possible though.

VonPaul, I would be interested in seeing what effect taking Tobruk has had on your supply situation. Are you now completely out of supply or are you still drawing some supply from nearby cities ?

[doomtrader]

This game makes a lot of sense for me

[johanssb]

What about the forced declaration of war on the USSR though. Is that a scripted event ?

[JLPOWELL]

Ouch[:(][:(] Italy played by the AI... that not going to work very well. I would recommend not even trying to let the AI play a major power. Unfortunately the AI breaks down PARTICULARLY in complex situations like landings or situations where supply and extended penetration is an aspect. The Italians are just going to get in your way.

[johanssb]

Right. The Italians getting in your way, or not defending as well as the Germans, or breaking and running, etc... Sounds like a dose of reality to me. Having complete control of all aspects of every nation in your alliance sounds like the unrealistic scenario.

Besides, Italy played by the AI on one side, versus France and the USSR played by the AI on the other. Who does that favour ?

[JLPOWELL]

It wouldn't work for me, but to each his own...

Italy and France balance out (AI pretty dreadful for both). USSR has by far the best AI (plus it 'cheats' like mad getting way more units than a human) It is clear much more effort went into the USSR AI and it doesn't need to cope with Naval activity or invasions much. The problem with AI mixed into the game is that generates an idiots vrs geniuses situation. Humans with historical hindsight fighting the AI which for France and Italy pretty much stumbles about blindly. France's AI will abandon Maginot Line hexes and Italy will leave Tobruk undefended HUGE blunders, but of course the French did make some pretty huge blunders. IMO The AI in ToF is adequate for beginners to have something to play against and learn the game system, but breaks down against a human with any experience. This is OK most games of this genre have this issue and is not a problem if you have some live opponents.

Bottom line is is the game fun? If you are enjoying the game it is working, and on that score it sounds like it is.[:D][:D]

[JLPOWELL]

Just thought I would add a picture I took for some credibility (Saloum Egypt near the Libyan border) the whole coast looks like this you could come ashore easily anywhere you want... Total child's play compared to landing in Normandy

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

Basically I agree with Gary, but there are some design considerations here as well Particularly in north africa. Primary is the total lack of control over events (and of course the events themselves are completely off the chart. I like poker but the ToF events are poker with many changing unknown wild cards. They introduce a luck element which is pretty extreme. PARTICULARLY if they are assigned randomly as in PBEM.

The main problem with invasions just about ALWAYS get thru even when enemy has naval superiority. (I had a nearly full strength inf division killed by a GE division landing out of in Alexandria with 4 CV UK CV and lots of ships in the sea zone plus 3 ftrs near (About as likely as driving a Toyota Camry across the Qattara depression ... oops a 200 meter vertical escarpment better shift to low gear) Even an unopposed landing is tricky, an opposed landing VERY dangerous with significant advantage to defenders, with enemy sea superiority SUICIDE. Not So in ToF treats this more like getting off a bus across gutter.

A bone to pick is the map for North Africa. No invasion beaches along the coast. (I have driven much of the coast and it is for all practical purposes one long invasion beach. Add to that the complete non representation of the Qattara Depression (tanks and units just drive right thru this in ToF. I have been there as well [:D]

For more North Africa fun how about the 'event' which materializes a 3rd level full strength panzer corps and calls it DAK sure the most powerful unit in the game by far just appears in Africa and of course you can just drive it thru the Qattara Depression(extremely strong even when out of supply although supply thru the Qattara depression hexes is no big deal LOL)


>> From Wikipedia (pretty accurate I can say from personal observation)
The depression has the form of a teardrop with the point of the drop facing east and the broad deep area facing the south west. The northern side of the depression is characterised by steep escarpments up to 280 meters high, marking the edge of the adjacent El Diffa plateau. To the south the depression slopes gently up to the Great Sand Sea.
Within the Depression there are salt marshes, under the northwestern and northern escarpment edges, and extensive dry lakes (dry lake beds) that flood occasionally. The marshes occupy approximately 300 square kilometres (120 sq mi), although wind blown sands are encroaching in some areas. About a quarter of the region is occupied by dry lakes composed of hard crust and sticky mud, and occasionally filled with water.
The depression was formed by salt weathering and wind erosion working together. First the salts crumble the depression floor and then the wind blows away the resulting sands.[4]
Its a joke to see the two fortfied hexes east of El Alamein with a completely open flank to the south[:-] NO ONE was going to flank those positions (was Rommel just to stupid to drive around them???)

[vonpaul]

sorry for the late response, busy as hell at work

Yeah the real kicker isn't North Africa, but i'll start there. Invading Tobruk is borderline to a 'I win Africa' button, but well done to . There are no ports in Libya except Tripoli & Tobruk so there is nowhere to ship supply to now. This is in itself pretty stupid, what about ports in the other cities, don't they exist in this reality? And of course Germany doesn't have any ships to sea supply there. Forget about the Italians.

The real kicker is the AI D/W on Russia 4 weeks earlier than historical and way earlier that what what I had planned for. Thus most of my armor is still in transit from Yugo/Hungry. Yugo was alot harder to take then I expected, surely there should be some collapse event for them? Easy to take from Romania/Hungry (in fact Romania captured most of the terrain). A lot harder to take from German controlled positions. That said i might have stuffed this up and not fully understood how capture from friendly hexes works.

To compound the issue, I only just clawed my way out of the -500PP that happened in early 41, I think i climbed back into positive territory in very late April/early May. This means my air force that is still badly worn down from trying to protect the Italians from throwing away N.Africa and is in out of position and in no real shape to contribute to the Russian campaign for a few turns.

Maybe I am being too harsh on the game, but it seems to be constantly screwing me over. I take people's point about AI France & AI Russia being weak compared to humans but both of those seem straightforward fights and the AI seems capable of fighting a ground war. It seems totally unable to fight anything more complicated. AI logic is to protect port = stack every space around the port with weak units and don't move them...ever Fantastic, why are we playing the Grand campaign again...why not just play Barbarossa if that is all the AI can handle?

[doomtrader]

Who declared the war?
Germany or Russia?

[vonpaul]

Germany

[doomtrader]

It is 60% of chances for earlier attack on USSR

[vonpaul]

thanks so 60% chance of screwing your plans eh

[johanssb]

I don't get this one. If a human is actually playing Germany, why would the game take over and declare war on the USSR ? I could see there being a chance of the USSR declaring war if Germany doesn't garrison appropriately...

Doom ?

[johanssb]

Come on VonPaul. Admit it. Before Tobruk you must have been having fun using the DAK to beat the snot out of me...

[johanssb]

In this case though, Italy didn't leave Tobruk undefended. It was occupied by and surrounded by Italian units. It makes sense in some respects to have the weaker Italians as garrison troops behind the lines while the stronger Germans are fighting on the front line. I guess you can't really do this when you don't have naval superiority though.

[JLPOWELL]

Events system is hopelessly broken in PBEM and pretty damaged anyway...

Not too hard to fix IMO Here are three suggestions

1. Get rid of 90% of events (or allow players to disable them from a menu) most of the events are complete nonsense. If you want this game to be perceived as a simulation not a fantasy role playing game dump the [X(] wackadoodle [X(]events.

Random @$%@# falls from the sky either surprise crap which can knock a country out of the game or aliens drop a UBER PANZER [X(] in Africa gifting you the strongest unit in the game (more powerful than any units deployed in USSR REALLY???) Pretty much a Mario Brothers magic mushroom powerup only more random.

Economically crippling triggers buried in xml files with arbitrary unit build limits.

Prize Money for conquest; what is this AD 1500 ransoming captured nobles? GET rid of the dungeon treasure unless your trying to compete with World of Warcraft When you capture a country you get income from the cities pretty much all that needed to simulate economic effects of conquest not enough $ tweak the amount you get from captured cities this random lotto $$ is just plain silly I expect Albert Speer knew about how much production to expect moving forward unless someone bombed some factories, and even then had a pretty good idea of what to expect week to week.

Don't even get me started on the USSR collapse events now appropriately set at 4/1/41 .... April Fools funny but sad... mostly sad.[:(]


2. DOCUMENT the events Write up a list how hard can this be put it in a readme file (start by putting descriptive comments in the all the events xml files then convert the comments into a readme file If you MUST have Economically crippling triggers buried in xml files with arbitrary unit build limits. at least let the players know what they are.

3. Grant event control in PBEM to the player. Here is an idea lets let the player controlling Germany DECIDE if its a good idea to attack the USSR. It just might have an impact on game play. Again not to tough to implement delay implementation of events where needed by a turn if a response is needed. Present the choice and if a response is needed present that choice to the other player then implement on the following turn