41-45GC - A FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL - GLVACA (Sov) v SJ80 (Axis) - NO SJ80

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: gids

you play well glaca but im afraid youl be in for some surprises ,if he plays it smart he will have a full fledged assault going in 1942  ,and you will be astonished what the germans still can reach in 1942 ,he wont loose to much battles ass wel in 42 maybe sometimes a "held" if youre lucky .the game is nice ,it is fun but you cant say its to much of historical anymore ,the russian player these days doesnt have a chance to keep the main cities (unless your playing a new person) leningrad keeping....not a chance,moscou ....big HA ,you prob had 1 of the best planned defenses i saw and still it got hurt ,so youre in the same situation i am now against anorak,he only has 1 big objective now .....the south and believe me if he makes all his RR there and all his planes ,SU units you will loose stalingrad :p.
Anyway my point DONT underestimate 1942 act like its 1941 try to put forts on keypoints and start building forts around stalingrad ,because he WILL reach it if not take it ,if you can move the factories out of there to the edge of the map....although that didnt help me much because hes almost at the edge :p,dont even think going on the offensive that soon.
you play a nice game keep it up

Hey Gids, Thanks for the nice words.
I've read you talking about that campaign before but still it's difficult for me to comment on it. I know 1942 will be though, but I'm also hoping I can damage him during the Blizzard. I'll judge the situation come February and will base my plans for 1942 on the situation then. I'm certainly planning on building as many rifle Corps as I can afford, maybe 2 of those in a fort lvl3 can actually stop a German assault?

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: glvaca

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Hopefully you moved the IL-2 factories from Voronezh?

And if you haven't yet, move all aircraft from Moscow, there is alot there

Unfortunately I was unable to move anything from Voronezh, he locked it in a blitz move.

I decided against moving the factories in N-Moscow and the Moscow hex, it's a gamble I know...

Too late for you, but Soviet players should bite the bullet and move even a fraction of the factories in Voronezh and Moscow. Sure, it will have a negative impact on IL-2 production, but they won't have a huge impact during the Blizzard, even if you ahve 1000s, so they will have several months to recover and start producing. Same goes for the Pe-2, IL-2 factories in Moscow. You better not lose all your IL-2 factories, that would be a complete disaster. I think you can live with 1/2, but no less! You cannot let those factories in Moscow fall.

And M-60 is right, the exception is don't bother to move the Mig-3s (or even the LAGG-3s in Taganrog)

I agree, and I don't intend to, although it is far from certain.
I would have evacuated Voronzeh if I had the chance, but he was too fast and I just didn't have the RR capacity to rail out all I wanted.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think he stripped the south of armor. I'd be marching forward from Rostov and slamming into all that infantry before it gets dug in.

Am not impressed by his hey diddle diddle up the middle approach to Moscow. It virtually guarantees that this push is just a raid. Even if he takes it, he can't hold it through winter. In order to do that he needs to clear out the entire area, not just stick his nose into the city and leave the flanks gathering strength.

I agree, it's not the best move to go right up the middle. However, so far, these two seemed evenly matched, both playing well but making some mistakes, so times like this one will be memorable. Sj80 did a "WWHD?" (What Would Hitler Do?), time is growing short, Moscow is in sight, let us make this a test of wills and take the city!

On the other side, GLVACA asked, what would Stalin do? He would dig in and fight for every inch of ground! Rather a bloody battle, Soviet troops hoping to be used in a Winter offensive are ground up and spit out, but elite German troopers are being lost while taking the city.

Hitler would be happy, claim victory, and we know they will be pushed back once blizzard hits. I can see Hitler foaming at the mouth as his troops are thrown back, and Stalin lighting up a stogie and urging his commanders to get to Berlin before spring.

The best of play, no. Making Moscow a point of fixation for both sides, now that's a rare thing. When I look back on fond memories of this game, something like this will stick out. Kudos for both people making this something to remember, and something that could happen on the Eastern Front.

I'm really enjoying this game. Sebastian is an expert German player so to be fair I really only could react to his moves. Almost to turn 28, when that's finished I plan on pushing the AAR right to Blizzard.

[glvaca]

Perhaps a step in the right direction would be to reduce FZ cost from start of the game to 4, versus the 8 now? That would certainly make things a bit easier, but not that much.

[sillyflower]

Seems to me forts are a waste of time for soviets. they have no construction value to speak of (cf german forts) and in the front line they just act as POW camps as troops add b#gg@r all combat value and just surrender. Not even worth 4 APs IMHO.

Only use is just N of L'grad to man no attack line. Possibly to man fort lines in blizzard advance but you should have more than enough brigades for that anyway.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Seems to me forts are a waste of time for soviets. they have no construction value to speak of (cf german forts) and in the front line they just act as POW camps as troops add b#gg@r all combat value and just surrender. Not even worth 4 APs IMHO.

Only use is just N of L'grad to man no attack line. Possibly to man fort lines in blizzard advance but you should have more than enough brigades for that anyway.

The best use I found is attach 3 RR brig (or sappers if you prefer). That speeds up digging. True, that's 7 AP's but lvl2 isn't going to cut it, at all. You need lvl3's to have about equal losses and have a small but of hope you may stop him. Idially, you disband the FZ before the fight comes near.

[HITMAN202]

I'm puzzled, How can the Ruskies lose almost 270 divisions but only have 2.6 mil casualties ??? Is it that SJ8O is not hammering the Soviets enough in straight up attacks and is too concentrated on creating pockets ??? Flavius has often mentioned a game in which a German opponent wore him down and it was my impression that it was skillful use of combined inf/pnzr/air attacks, not the result of making big pockets. I'm starting to see that hasty attacks with a good inf/pnz combo with HQ support against level 2 forts in clear or light wood terrain is a go, particularly with 3 air ground attacks softening up the target.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I'm puzzled, How can the Ruskies lose almost 270 divisions but only have 2.6 mil casualties ??? Is it that SJ8O is not hammering the Soviets enough in straight up attacks and is too concentrated on creating pockets ??? Flavius has often mentioned a game in which a German opponent wore him down and it was my impression that it was skillful use of combined inf/pnzr/air attacks, not the result of making big pockets. I'm starting to see that hasty attacks with a good inf/pnz combo with HQ support against level 2 forts in clear or light wood terrain is a go, particularly with 3 air ground attacks softening up the target.

Hmmm, I didn't lose 270 Divs, probably only half so I'm not sure where you got that number from.
I think it is fair to say SJ80 went for pockets as much as possible although he never overreach and only once went for a pocket of 21 divs, just in front of Moscow on turn 13 (IIRC). The only sure way to avoid pockets is to retreat, but sooner or later you're going to run out of space to do that, especially in front of Moscow. Where he couldn't achieve pockets, he grinded and grinded and then some more grinding. It should be evident from the pictures in the AAR. Even lvl 3 forts could not stop him, although he did pay a price.

As to hasties, against lvl 2 forts it really depends on the strength and quality of the defenders and as such their CV's. Against weak units, it certainly can be done but don't try that versus a 20+ CV stack, it won't work. Bombing will surely help, but still there are limits to what hasties can achieve.

Don't try to find to many "golden rules" or sure betts. There is so much randomization going on that quite often luck determines the winner...

[AFV]

Deleted, because I am stupid, lol.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: glvaca



Hmmm, I didn't lose 270 Divs, probably only half so I'm not sure where you got that number from.

lost units include disbands but still only 185 divs by T17[;)]

[glvaca]

TURN 21

After Soviet moves, sitrep, last turn of mud.

[glvaca]

Center/South

[glvaca]

South, overview.

[glvaca]

North, close up.
Leningrad & SW Fronts are pretty weak still having been constantly pillaged of their best divisions to help before Moscow. Still, he hasn't tried to push further NE so I'm quite content to leave things as they are, for now.
As you can see on the overview screenshot above, many divisions are still refitting 10+ hexes behind the front in preparation for Blizzard.

[glvaca]

The all important center of centers; Moscow.
I've really paid an extraordinairy amount of time sorting out my defences before Moscow.
Responsible for the defence of the Moskva-Volga Canal are 2 armies of the Kalinin Front (34th & 43) backed in depth by SW Front's 8th Army.
Linking up South, are the 4 Armies of Western Front, all fresh from R&R, 10+ hexes away during mud but centainly not upto full strength.
This time, I'm ready, and have many divisions in reserve. In addition, in the crutial hexes East of Moscow hex, and to the North and South, I have mixed the divisions of 3 armies in an effort to get more guns and SU's into the fight AND to increase my chances of Reserve unit commitment. As I will now have 3 armies making the check, for often a total of 10+ divisions elligeable.
I had build FZ on most hexes I recaptured just before mud, but I couldn't get past lvl2, although I'm close to lvl3.

During mud, the Bryansk front has slowly fallen back as I judged the risk to high for a pincer movement. Losing 3 armies att his stage would be stupid, even if I hate to give up terrain I'll have to take back come Blizzard.

Further South, in between Ryazan and North of Voronezh, there's not really a coherent line. Just some brigades and weak divisions playing the "grab hexes back after he took them" game.

[glvaca]

The Moscow hex defenders.

[glvaca]

Voronezh close up. During mud, he had to withdraw as his spearhead dropped out of supply completely.
C&C is a bit of a mess with elements of 4 armies miggled to an annoying degree, but I don't want to spend the AP's to sort it out.
Anyway, layer defence with plenty of reserves.

[glvaca]

Rostov. Most units here have been refitted during mud and are morale 50, 80%+ strong.
Except for SW's 26th Army which I fall back as it is too weak to really fight.

[glvaca]

Finally, OOB, and over 5 million at last.

[glvaca]

TURN 22

Before Soviet moves.
Dissaster! Sebastian is kind enough to let me know during his movement that he has captured 2 hexes of Moscow. At first I think he's kidding, but it turns out to be quite true.
Only 2 massive combats are needed to kick the defenders out.
In the Red combat, his final CV actually tripples! In the Blue attack, it "only" doubles.
Hmmmm.....
One gleamer of hope is that the yellow attack fails with heavy loss for him. This is basically the first time I've managed to hold my ground against a heavy attack. Things are looking up [:'(]
Bryansk front is pushed back several hexes. Of the 5 combats, only 1 reserve divisions commits but can't stem the tide and I suffere serious losses. But again, I manage a held result on one combat, that's 2 already! [;)]

Not good... I just lost all the production in the N Moscow hex.